OMG - So Annoying Please I Need Your Help Guys - Static Type Noise Aerial/Altenator?

[jokerflingo]

Hi guys, i have a Holden VS Ute and have a medium priced audio system in it which comprises of a;

Subwoofer - Alpine SWS-1023D - Alpine Electronics of Australia
Amp - Cadence FXA-4060 - FXA-4060 - FX PLUS SERIES - Cadence Acoustics, LTD
Speakers - Alpine SPS-600 - Alpine Electronics of Australia
Head Unit - Sony CDX-4800X - 2 RCA Pre-Outs Front/Rear which i am using as Front and Sub since its has no Rear Speakers cause its a Ute.

All these components and cables are new except for the Head Unit which came with the car when i purchased it. Now i believe all these components are quite good quality and value being Alpine except maybe the HU.

Now here is the problem, there is this small type static noise which i am unsure if it is Alternator type ticking noise or Aerial type static noise. But i can tell you its so F*****G annoying that it could drive me insane and i literally mean me because my dad cannot hear it due to his hearing at age 55. Now this is another big problem because he is usually great at identifying problems but if he cant hear it he cant identify it. So i am really relying on you guys.

What i have done so far is pulled out the HU and AMP several times to check connections and everything else i possibly could, first i noticed the aerial plug was a little loose so i plugged right in thinking that will fix it but no, next i moved the power cable as far away as possible from the signal cables and thought that would fix it but no, then i replaced the little radio suppressor on the alternator thinking that would fix it but no. Also i have moved the ground wires several times with the HU ground connected to its factory earth and the Amp earth connected to the bottom of the passenger seat mount bolt(Amp is under Passenger Seat). I should also add that i don't believe this sound was there before the audio system install.

I am seriously getting so totally pissed off that im gonna end up breaking something. But heres the catch this problem only occurs when im listening to the radio no matter what station and the car is running. So CD with the car off or on sounds absolutely awesome for the price i paid for the system from a m8 at cost price from JB. Again if i listen to the radio with the car off it sounds flawless but when the car is running i get this tiny little static noise which sounds like it could be alternator noise or aerial static?

I am so confused as i am sure its not the Amp, Speakers or Sub which then leaves the Aerial or the HU as the culprit but this is what confuses me because i would have thought that if it was the HU that the CD would also play with this noise instead of being absolutely flawless? And then another thing that confuses me is the fact when the car is off and im listening to the radio again its fine? So again that sort of leads me to believe that the HU and Aerial are fine but then when the car is running there it is again that tiny little static type noise. What on earth could it possibly be because everything that leads me to believe that a particular component could be the problem then doesn't make sense because it works flawlessly when played via CD with the car or or off or on the radio with the car off?

I swear i have tried everything but it just wont P*** O** this little irritating noise. Now i know it would be best to try another HU or Aerial but thats not very easy in this case. Can anyone please tell me of anything i could try next or anything i have missed?

Any help would be much appreciated so that when im listening to the radio with the car running it will sound absolutely flawless as it does when im listening to the Radio with the car off or the CD with the car on or off.

Any info is much appreciated and sorry about the long post.
Thanks
Matt.

[holdenboy]

Firstly top marks for your description and listing the components, ALL people wanting advice / opinions should take note

I recently came across this type of problem in new Hilux and after many hours of troubleshooting etc i found the antennas own earth was at fault.

I suggest you get into the inner guard where the antenna is mounted and have a look at the wiring, you should see a small black cable coming out of the antenna and going to metal (earth). Undo the screw / bolt and clean the area / sand it back to bare metal. Put the earth back on and check to see if that fixed it.

[VQXTC]

Hi Jokerflingo, does this sound only happen on AM or FM or both? One of the most common problems I have found is the wire that extends from the H/U to the Aerial. Otherwise known as an aerial extension (for obvious reasons). Ends up having a poor connection at either end or both this thereby causes resistance in the lead causing the bad connection. It is especially noticeable on AM more so than FM.
Let me know if this makes a difference.....

cheers

Simon

[jokerflingo]

Thanks both of you Holdenboy and VQXTC, this weekend it looks like i will be diving into ripping apart the aerial and investigating to see if i can find the cause. I will definitely have to check the aerial earth/ground as well as the connection going from the aerial to the headunit.

I am not sure if AM makes this same type of noise as FM because i don't listen to it much but i wouldn't be surprised if if did and will have to go and check asap if it does. Hopefully if that fixes it i can report back here a happy man but if it doesn't solve the problem what would be the next step? If there are any?

Thanks again for taking the time to read through my rather large description and throw up some helpful idea's of which i hope one will fix the problem. Will try this weekend and if you have any more ideas please do share.

Matt

[VQXTC]

Hi Jokerflingo, Ok how well does the radio pick up AM?
If AM is really poor reception wise then this is a tell tale sign that the earth on the antenna is very poor.....

Let me know how this goes...

cheers

Simon

[jokerflingo]

Hi Jokerflingo, Ok how well does the radio pick up AM?
If AM is really poor reception wise then this is a tell tale sign that the earth on the antenna is very poor.....

Let me know how this goes...

cheers

Simon

Hmm just a quick update before i dive into it tomorrow, i had a quick listen to AM radio while i was driving today and i am unsure if i could hear the same type of noise i hear on FM as it may just be how AM Radio is these days considering i haven't listened to it in quite a while.

[jokerflingo]

Ah Nuts, well im pretty sure the annoying sound is still there, even after i pulled apart the Aerial and sprayed everything with lubricant and made sure all the connections were good including the ground/earth.

As i said in my above post AM seems to be fine and doesn't experience this static type noise. What else could it possibly be? What is my next step to try and get rid of this problem?

I sort of could try another HU as my sister has a Alpine CD Player with 2 RCA Outs. But this is quite a job and i can tell you i would be really pissed off if i found out that it made no difference and also even if it did that would mean id have to spend $200 - $300 dollars which would also result in me be pissed off.

Any more info would be much appreciated as i cant believe this small noise could be so annoying and the fact it only occurs when the car is running and im playing the radio which is the most common combination i use is really annoying.

Thanks
Matt

[jokerflingo]

Well another weekend any new ideas to try and fix this pain in the ass problem?

[holdenboy]

Hard to say without actually listening or having a good look at your system / car.

If its only happening on FM then its not an earthing problem at the antenna etc, as the earth is only for AM i am led to beleive. Maybe try a different antenna as opposed to a different head-unit.

Also get a multimeter and check to make sure the mast has a good connection with the centre pin of the antenna plug at the radio, it may take some stuffing around (like removing the head-unit and extending a test lead to reach the mast/plug) but it may tell you if the cable isnt making a good connection with the cable.

[jokerflingo]

Hard to say without actually listening or having a good look at your system / car.

If its only happening on FM then its not an earthing problem at the antenna etc, as the earth is only for AM i am led to beleive. Maybe try a different antenna as opposed to a different head-unit.

Also get a multimeter and check to make sure the mast has a good connection with the centre pin of the antenna plug at the radio, it may take some stuffing around (like removing the head-unit and extending a test lead to reach the mast/plug) but it may tell you if the cable isnt making a good connection with the cable.

HAHA no worries currently my car is a mess, im redoing the headlining, fixing the handbrake button which decided to shit itself so the centre console is missing and half the driver side trim

I'm so confused because again is shouldn't be the HU because it works fine when the car isn't running and again it shouldn't be the Antenna because it works fine when the car isn't running. I don't believe this is alternator noise anymore because it isn't that whirling noises that gets higher pitched, more or less just static/background noise as if the speakers are making a clipping or distorted type noise when listening to only the radio with the car running. Makes me think earth/ground but i have checked the Amp, HU, and Antenna

[jokerflingo]

Just a little update i managed to get another aerial for $10 since the top part of mine is quite loose so ill try that asap and report back. In the mean time anyone got any other idea's?

[VQXTC]

Ok this is a long shot but what sort of Spark Plug Leads are on your car? How does the car run in general...?

Only reason why I ask this is sometimes depending on the Leads....If they are in poor codition then they can sometimes cause Interference thru the electrical system and can sometimes cause strange noises to come back through the speakers.....

There is something else to try, but once again its a long shot.... but you could try isolating the Head Unit from the cars power supply.... One way to do this would be to disconnect the power completely from the car and run the Head unit off a seperate battery and see if the problem is still there....

Unfortunately without being at the car itself it is really hard to advise people.... But we will try our best..

cheers

Simon

[jokerflingo]

Ok this is a long shot but what sort of Spark Plug Leads are on your car? How does the car run in general...?

Only reason why I ask this is sometimes depending on the Leads....If they are in poor codition then they can sometimes cause Interference thru the electrical system and can sometimes cause strange noises to come back through the speakers.....

There is something else to try, but once again its a long shot.... but you could try isolating the Head Unit from the cars power supply.... One way to do this would be to disconnect the power completely from the car and run the Head unit off a seperate battery and see if the problem is still there....

Unfortunately without being at the car itself it is really hard to advise people.... But we will try our best..

cheers

Simon

Hmmm, thanks again for your continued help as i know it must be annoying. As for the car it runs absolutely brilliantly and i have no troubles with it what so ever so id rather not starting changing this that and the other. But as for isolating the HU to see whether its the problem is what has be confused me again because when the car is off the static type noise is non existent. Its only when the car is running which again makes me think earth/ground which i will again this weekend have to root around with.

I can see the writing on the wall though that sooner or later i am going to have to buy a new HU as this current one may well be the problem and it must be fairly old and probably one of the first HU's to have two RCA Pre-outs. Its not the most pretty looking either so i wouldn't mind getting a new HU but if the noise was exactly the same after all the rooting around i would be furious.

Thanks again for your continued help
Matt.

[scr33ch08]

with my car i had the same problem end up being a earth wire in the head unit pull out take to audio place they could solder for about $50 or if u got a steady hand u can do it yourself ...

[jokerflingo]

with my car i had the same problem end up being a earth wire in the head unit pull out take to audio place they could solder for about $50 or if u got a steady hand u can do it yourself ...

Hmm, so do you mean the earth wire was actually loose inside the HU and this was causing the same type of noise only when the car was running in your case? Thanks for the information as this is another thing i can check this weekend. To fix this annoying problem.

[VQXTC]

Quick question, do you have a multimeter? If so you could test the continuity of the outer part of the antenna plug on the Head Unit to the chassis of the Head Unit.......

Let me know what you get.....

Cheers

Simon

[jokerflingo]

Quick question, do you have a multimeter? If so you could test the continuity of the outer part of the antenna plug on the Head Unit to the chassis of the Head Unit.......

Let me know what you get.....

Cheers

Simon

Yes my dad has already offered to do that this weekend. Hopefully it finds something

[smurf]

Gday mate,
Me and a mate had a heap of interference issues with the stereo setup in his vl. It doesn't sound like the same issue, but it could be the same fix. Worth a shot.
He had an issue which was called "ground loop". I can't really explain as I don't understand the issue really well. Basically what we did was use a noise suppressor on the RCA cables to the amp. You may have a really small, hard to find and recitfy noise problem, wither through the alternator or the aerial or something, which is producing noise in the RCA's.
Jaycar sells the suppressors and they r fairly cheap, so give that a shot, might be an easy fix.

Hope you get it sorted out, sounds like a damn annoying issue. From what i can remember, ground loop was an issue with slightly warn components, and even some brand new gear, leaking a very small voltage through the ground, which then goes in the ground of other components. Don't quote me on this, as I'm not sure about it at all, and to me it sounds like BS, but if you google ground loop, you'll get an explanation of it.
That'd be where i'd look.

cheers,
-smurf

[BrAdAsS]

I have just gone through the whole find the alternator whine/ground loop when the vehicle is running thing myself after getting a high pitch whine for no reason... Resanding and upgrading earths, upgrading connectors, shortening wires, trying 1 and 2 ground points, rerouting power/signal wires as far apart as possible, accessories and auxillary devices, GPS power cable, even making a more permeable path for the induction to use.... all to no avail. It was the amplifier dieing in the boot. I disconnected the power wires to that amp and problem solved.

Interference is created when a unwanted current is induced through an existing path.
For example: the rca's ground/shield is inducing a current from the nearby power wire's electromagnetic field. This induced current can have the potential to damage the headunit and or amplifier connected to it as well as make the high pitch whine.

Make sure the headunit is grounded decently as the RCA's will use that as a ground reference.

Knowing that my problem was caused by the amp, If I had this problem again I would be disonnecting the amp/s and go for a drive to test and make sure the problem is not one of them.

[jokerflingo]

Thanks for all the ideas guys, just sucks that i still have this problem and still only with the radio when the car is running. The other weekend my dad and i ****ed around for ages removing the antenna and replacing it along with the aerial cable to the back of the head unit. This hasn't changed anything so now i guess next in line would have to be the HU which i do want a new one of, but if i do end up getting a new one and it has the same problem then what do i do?

Like i said i still am not sure if it is Alternator Noise because its just weird but now i know its not the Antenna/Aerial. Obviously it is not the Speakers/Sub since they are fine with radio when the car is off but doesn't that mean that the amp should be fine as well? But then if thats the case then the HU should be fine which then means im back to square one The problem here is if it is the amp how would i go about doing anything about it because its under warranty still but im gonna have a hard time proving if anything was wrong with it if indeed its causing this problem.

Hmmm, just a thought i believe that the amp's remote turn on is a small dark grey wire, just curious if this being connected to one of the HU's wires could be causing something?

If not, any more ideas please.

Thanks
Matt.

[holdenboy]

I dont think it'll be anything relating to the amp itself. As you say its fine with the car off.

The amps remote should be connected to the remote output of the head-unit, this shouldnt be causing any dramas.

When you re-did the antenna, did you make sure the earth was good, even if you have to temporarily extend that wire and run it to the negative battery terminal for a test.

Its starting to sound like a head-unit fault, something within the tuner section. Sorry to say

[jokerflingo]

I dont think it'll be anything relating to the amp itself. As you say its fine with the car off.

The amps remote should be connected to the remote output of the head-unit, this shouldnt be causing any dramas.

When you re-did the antenna, did you make sure the earth was good, even if you have to temporarily extend that wire and run it to the negative battery terminal for a test.

Its starting to sound like a head-unit fault, something within the tuner section. Sorry to say

Thanks for the reply, i know you must be getting sick of me but this problem is driving me insane I have checked and double checked all the earths including the Antenna/Aerial, Amp and HU. I also have the amp connected as you said using the remote output. So you think it may be the HU even though it works brilliantly when playing the radio or a cd with the car off or when playing a cd with the car running? It is a fairly old HU by the looks of it, but what would i do if i go out and spend $300 on a HU get it home, install it and the problem is still there? I guess it is a process of elimination but so far it hasn't cost me much. I still cant understand it only happening with the radio on and the car running, which happens to be the most popular time i use it.

Like i said i wouldn't mind spending some money on a new HU because the current one i have isn't the best looking but if the problem is still there after i would be distraught. You could well be right though since it would only take a loose connection somewhere in the HU's internals to cause this problem right? And that would make some sense since im not sure if this is the typical Alternator Noise.

Ill have to go searching for a new HU when i get back from NZ in a week or so and i should be able to get one at cost price, so my question is if you cant think of anything else i could try what HU brand and model is the best? It would have to be single din, have a minimum of 2 RCA's(Front Speakers + Sub = Ute) and be around $300 since i may be able to get cost price from a m8

Its currently a Sony but i would prefer Pioneer/Alpine or similar.

Thanks again
Matt.

[holdenboy]

Dose the noise increase / decrease with the revving of the car? this will determine whether its an alternator induced noise or not.

My guess (and its just that) is the head-unit itself is playing up. It would great if you could "borrow" a head-unit and test it, but if not then maybe purchasing a new one is your only option.

Suggestions for a new head-unit, is there any other preferences like Ipod connectivity? Heres a few:

Alpine Electronics of Australia

Car CD player with direct USB connection - DEH-3100UB :: Pioneer Australia

You should be able to get either of those for around the $300 mark.

The Kenwood KDC-5043U is a nice unit too, just got one of these for a mates car and was impressed with how simple and effective it was, especially for the price.

http://www.ryda.com.au/Kenwood-KDC-M...kdcmp5043u.htm

[jokerflingo]

Dose the noise increase / decrease with the revving of the car? this will determine whether its an alternator induced noise or not.

My guess (and its just that) is the head-unit itself is playing up. It would great if you could "borrow" a head-unit and test it, but if not then maybe purchasing a new one is your only option.

Suggestions for a new head-unit, is there any other preferences like Ipod connectivity? Heres a few:

Alpine Electronics of Australia

Car CD player with direct USB connection - DEH-3100UB :: Pioneer Australia

You should be able to get either of those for around the $300 mark.

The Kenwood KDC-5043U is a nice unit too, just got one of these for a mates car and was impressed with how simple and effective it was, especially for the price.

Ryda Car Audio - Kenwood KDC-MP5043U Car CD & USB Tuner($199.95)

Just curious in a Car Audio system that is properly setup and has no problems is there meant to be any sort of distortion noise? Except possibly on Am? As my dad keeps saying its probably just normal signal distortion noise being amplified by the amp. Please tell me he is wrong? I am still unsure if it is alternator noise because everyone that i talk to says alternator noise changes with the revs and is more of a whining type noise.

This isn't like that more or less like a static type noise like when you cant pick up a decent signal or arnt quite tuned into the right station, more noticeable with deeper bass music and is not like a high pitched whine which everyone keeps saying, unless i have no idea what you guys mean by a whine. If it is alternator type noise what would be my next move? I see that smurf suggested a noise suppressor? This shouldn't be necessary should it if the system is properly setup with good earths etc?

Also i should note that when we installed the speakers which are coxial and have the tweeter built into the speaker we didnt do anything with the factor tweeters which were seperate? Could this cause any noise type problems? And also the ground for the antenna checked out along with the HU which are both the factory locations and currently the amp ground is connected to the passenger side front right seat bolt? Could that maybe be a problem? Even though it is on bare metal on the chassis?

EDIT: Also i have been reading around and have found that if you change the Speaker Amp settings from Hi Pass to Low Pass like the sub then if the noise disappears its alternator noise? Is this correct or if it just bs because i would of thought if i changed the High Pass to Low Pass then i would pretty much get no noise from the speakers? Also last of all whats all this talk about a ground loop as i see that it causes a majority of problems after grounds/earths have been checked?

[holdenboy]

Normally you wont get any noise through a system....if its done properly. It sounds like the install itself is fine, it could be many things:

* If its engine interference, maybe the supressor on the back of the alternator (small cylinder shaped metal object, about $5 to replace).

* Stock speaker wiring problem, receiving interference in the stock loom somewhere

* Faulty amplifier, inducing noise when the head-unit receives a weak signal

* Faulty head-unit, inducing noise when receiving a weak signal


One way to test whether its the amplifier at fault is to run speaker cables straight from the head-unit to your speakers or a test speaker. If the noise is still there then we can rule out the amplifier, wiring and installation, and lean more towards the head-unit. If it goes away it could be the suppressor, amplfiier or wiring somewhere.

Turning on the LPF will cut any high frequencies to those speakers, which in turn will cut any "interference" noise induced.

Using ground loop isolators are a band aid solution, and most of time they just reduce the noise, and rarely actually elimante it.

I know youre not keen on replacing the unit and not fixing the noise, so why not just take it into a specialist car audio shop and get them to have a look at it, which will maybe cost $50-$100 and possibly fix the noise.