8" subs in parcel shelf, dual fuel VS.

[DAKSTER]

Hi guys,

I have been thinking about how to get some decent sound in my dual fuel VS (without going overboard on price) whilst still keeping my boot and LPG tank. I have a midrange Sony HU that does all I need it to do very well, and which I already know how to use lol.. so I plan on keeping that. It has 4 rca speaker outputs and sub output.

The gas tank is behind the back seats, which creates clearance issues under the parcel shelf too, and being a VS the spare wheel is mounted on the passenger side, not the floor. I don't want a sub box in the boot, and I listen to rock n roll more than doof doof, so I am thinking this might work well.

2 of these Pioneer Pioneer TS-SW841D 8" ( free air suitable ) shallow subs on the rear shelf on spacers. Mounting depth of 63.5mm. 500W max, 120W nom. at 4ohms. 2@$200 = $400



Powered by a matching amp.. Pioneer GM5500T 2x 125W RMS @ 4ohms, 2x410W peak. $185



Also on the rear shelf, some 100W 4x6 Soundstream Tarantulas, for some nice mids. $160



Power for the Tarantulas, both rear and front..
JL Audio XD4004 Class D 2/3/4 Channel Amplifier 75W RMS x 4 @ 4ohms $370



And some front speakers.. more Soundstream Tarantulas

Soundstream TRC.6N Tarantula - 6.5" Component Speakers 200W $300



All of this stuff is from Ryda, I am open to suggestions Any opinions? Obviously I will need to pretty much custom make a rear shelf to suit this setup, and some dynamat may be required but this should get me a reasonable sound?

[HCVP]

If you spent the whole amount combined which is almost $1000 on a proper set of fronts, you wouldn't need the rest.

[DAKSTER]

What do you have in mind?

[HCVP]

Anything that is decent really. You won't find much of a low fq increase from a pair of 8'' free air subs in the rear shelf. They won't play low enough so your ears will in most cases be able to pick that they are behind you.

Typically anything below 100hz is non directional , meaning you can't tell where the sound is coming from. But that's more of a technical standard, i know my ears can pick well below that where the drivers are mounted.

Add that to the mix with the proposed 4 x 6 speakers you want to mount there aswell, and you will have a very rearward drawn sound stage. They won't offer anything more than your typical 6'' coaxial speaker. In fact as far as midrange, or midbass is concerned, a 4 x 6 speaker would be considered a poor choice, as the overall cone surface area is reduced to 4'' at the smallest point.

Any good quality 6 - 6.5 speaker setup up front will provide all you need as far as midrange, midbass, and high fq's. If your after solid bass then just add a proper subwoofer. Just because you have dual fuel doesn't mean you can't have a subwoofer. There's a lot of miss understanding and a lot of people who believe you can't have a sub in a boot with LPG.

Combine your whole budget for what you wanted to spend on all those speakers, and go and have a listen to some set's that are around that price, and see where you stand after that.

[DAKSTER]

OK thanks, you sound well informed

My thought was that I actually dont need super low frequencies due to my middle of the road music tastes. I hadnt realised the sound stage thing, I guess I thought the smaller speakers would mask that effect somehow. No idea really, thats why I am asking

I currently have a 12" 400W JBL sub in the boot with a little generic branded supposedly 200W amp on it. The sound it gives me is more than acceptable, but the overall sound of the system is less full than I would like, and the mids let it down. I have some 6" Sony dual cones in the rear shelf, I guess I will have to look for something punchier. I am happy to accept your advice on the 4x6, I guess I was really just after something a little different there too, but sound quality is more important

The fronts are currently Pioneer 6.5 splits, but I dont like them very much, they sound a little hollow. To be fair to them though, all of the cabin speakers are just running off the HU so far, no additional amp.

The sub in the boot is a problem for me, I dont particularly want it there. I did have another idea which could involved 2 real subs in the boot.. I actually kinda hijacked someone elses thread to ask about it and got some useful answers I hope.

Perhaps you would be willing to have a read of that thread then get back to me here with your thoughts? Just dont want to continue to hijack his thread, and there is too much to copy into here I think..

Sub boxes in VS

[HCVP]

The way i see it you have a few options. Each one will obviously have it's pro's and cons, so it's really up to you which way you choose to go.

1- You could use a reasonable set of front speakers, and for some extra mid bass response you could use a decent set of 6 x 9's in the rear. This would draw your sound stage slightly back, somewhere around the middle of the cabin depending on how you have the fader set up. But to get the most mid bass response from the larger rear speakers you would need your fader set around 50/50. Some people don't mind this, some people like it, i don't, but it's personal prefference.

2- Fit a sub. Use one of the corner enclosures if you need to maximise space. They aren't cheap, and most need a few extra coats of resin inside before i would ever mount a driver. You can't get sub bass without a sub. If it's too much of a compromise for what ever the reasons then you'll just have to do without.

3- Just run the best front stage you can afford. Just because a sound system doesn't have a sub, does not mean it doesn't sound good. I know plenty of people who do not run subs, yet have spent a lot of money. They choose not to run a sub because they can be difficult to integrate , and due to the environment (the car itself)

4- Modify your front doors to fit a larger driver. Using a larger driver will give you much better low fq response. Speaking from experience low fq response in front of you, is better than trying to get a sub in the boot to blend smoothly. But going with a larger driver, will in most cases require a 3 way stage, because generally something like an 8'' driver won't cross over that well with most tweeters. A smaller driver is needed to fill the gap between the midbass driver and the tweeter.

For your budget it can be acomplished, however you would have to rely purely on the advice of others as the sort of speakers you would be using aren't typically available for audition.

If you think option 4 might be for you, don't tell him i sent you , but i'm pretty sure "Sweetfu" can get his hands on SB accoustics drivers

[DAKSTER]

Option 4 sounds good... thanks again for your input.

So maybe a custom front door installation, with 8" drivers and 6" mids, with tweeters on the dash? I'd enjoy making that, so its a good option for me if its good acoustically.

It should also mean I can crank it up a little without causing permanent damage to my kids ears lol...

Maybe some 6x9 2 ways on the rear shelf? Or would I be ok with just 6"?

Or even dispense with the rear shelf altogether and just add a 12" in a pod in the boot instead? Or would I still be better off having a pair of 6" in the shelf even with a sub? If I can get a decent low pass from the front doors, then a sub may not be necessary at all for my tastes, which would be nice if its possible.

I hadnt actually placed a budget on it, but I dont think its worth spending 5k on a full focal setup or anything. I can afford the good stuff, I just dont see the need for my purposes. Just nice clean loud rock n roll is all I need. I would like more power than the HU offers, but I am thinking a 'real' 75W RMS would be ample as compared to a 'claimed' 4x60W RMS from the HU. Obviously power needs would change though if I am putting all those speakers on the front 2 channels?

I like to run my Hu at no more than 75%, and the inbuilt amp just doesnt provide the volume I want at that level. Cranking it up to 100% will get me enough volume, but the distortion and clipping is unbearable at that level, so I dont think I need a huge amount of extra power, just an extra 50% or so in real terms.

Do you have a preference in mid range amps to suit my purposes?

Regarding the sub pod, yes they are expensive, and I can use fibreglass. If making my own pod is an option, is it only air volume that matters, or should I be looking at internal shape of the pod as well? I assume the aftermarket ones are not much more than just a top cover, and the internal shape is the car body? That question would also apply to custom front door installation..

[HCVP]

If you used an 8'' driver, you would want to use something smaller than a 6'' driver as the midrange. The idea is that you want to be able to cross each driver over. An 8'' on it's own, most often would not play fq's high enough, to meet the lowest fq's played by the tweeter, without putting unnessacary demands onto each driver.

An 8'' and 6'' are too similar, around 3.5'' for the midrange driver would be better suited.

But this option is only if your not going to add a sub, as a way of getting better low end response.

Again, the 6 x 9's do not have a use with this sort of setup either. I meant each option is it's own setup, not intended to be mixed with other things. No need to any sort of rear fill speakers either.

Umm power ratings - 4 x 60 on the head unit, this is claimed peak power output. You wan't to look at an amplifier's "rms" output. 60 in peak is probably somewhere around 15-20 in rms, that's just roughly it's not a set standard. But power isn't as important as a lot of people think. Music is dynamic, it is not a constant tone.

With regards to amplifier, my advice is always that less spent on the amp, is more spent on the the speakers. Yes, you need an amp/s, but your much more likely to hear the differences in different priced speakers, as aposed to different priced amplifiers.

Option 4 is an active setup, you won't run all of this from one amplifier. Factor that into the cost also.

[DAKSTER]

So look into a suitable 8/3.5/tweeter combo for the front doors, a separate amp for each door, and thats good enough in your opinion? No rear speakers at all?

If thats the case, maybe I should look at stuff like Focal or similar, since there is less of it to buy?

What do you mean by an 'active' setup? Is that simply being able to effectively use bass, mid and treble controls to have total control over each speaker?

[MAG00]

Sign up over on MEA forums
and then check this thread out from page 11.

He cuts the lower trim off of the door, and makes a custom enclosure. He also fibreglasses the A pillers to fit the tweeters and midranges.

Good food for thought. You won't get Focals in 8" afaik. It is a much better idea to have a chat to Sweefu in regards to your 3 way components.

Active means that you don't have a passive crossover between your components. It is a lot harder to set up and get right (even harder with 3 way), you need the right gear (good SQ headunit, processor/crossover etc.) and is probably too advanced for yourself (I don't even run active yet). With active you have a lot more tuning capabilities, such as time alignment for different components etc.

[DAKSTER]

I had a look at that installation, but I didnt much like the speakers on the A pillars. Doesnt matter, there was some useful info there, thanks.


OK so active is not the way to go. I want to play the car stereo, not play with it lol.

Based on what info has been offered so far, this is my current solution. If sweefu or anyone else wants to get in on the discussion, more than happy to hear more ideas.

Focal do make an 8" sub, but not sure how well it will match with other stuff. I am inclined to go for a matched set, and going by whats been said here, a really good 6.5" component set in a decent enclosure may provide enough bass to suit my tastes.

So heres my current solution. A 3 way component system in the front doors, thats it. And an amp to drive them.

Heres what I am looking at...

FP2.150 FOCAL 2-CH AMP 800 W (2x150 RMS @ 4ohms) $750.

165KRX3 - FOCAL 6.5" K2 3-WAY SYSTEM (200w RMS, 4 ohms) $1600.

2 channel amp for front doors only.

3 way component system for front doors only. 6.5" + 3" + tweeter. The bass and mid will go in the door and the tweeter on the dash reflecting off the windscreen. Does this sound reasonable?

I'll completely replace the whole door trims with a one piece custom fibreglass setup, which will also give me the chance to integrate some window switches from some Japanese donor.. hate having the window switches in the centre console !! All nicely trimmed up of course to match the car.

That will be a project for me to enjoy, and if it works well I will make a mold of it and sell em lmao

Going to stick with my current HU because I like it, and it does all I need to do.

Obviously the HU can also take some rear speakers and/or subs, but now given the information offered so far, I dont think I will bother. At most, a shallow sub enclosure under either front seat may be an option, but I gather this probably wont be any more effective for bass than the Focals in the doors anyway?

Maybe some basic 6" in the rear doors just to provide a better stage for the rear passengers? This isnt a priority, they are 15 and 12 year old girls and not so sure I want to listen to Chris Brown or Rihanna anyway.. maybe they can just use their ipods instead