VS Second Splits in Front

[Deutscher]

Hi guys,
(sorry if this has been discussed b4, internet slow.. had a quick look but takes 30mins to load each page (shaped))
I want to put another set of splits in the front of my VS S2 Calais. I've got 1 set in the original door trim speaker mount but want to add another one.

It's got electric windows. I previously thought north west of the original speaker mount .. but taking off my door trim there is the metal for the door directly behind it (thought cut some out ...) and behind that is my window motor (takes that out the solutions).

I was thinking, not cutting any metal out and just mounting it directly onto the door trim? .. only thing I was wondering... I know about subs that they need space behind the magnet .... do splits need that aswell?? I've got Alpine Type R splits (older version), running 70RMS, 6.5" (don't know if you needed to know this info).

Also... because the metal is behind the door trim and magnets attaches to it ... is it a bad thing? cus if I don't need space behind the magnet it will pretty much be touching the metal... also the window motor is behind that metal .. will it damage any of those components?

If anyone else had put another set of speakers in the front of a VS can you please let me know how you did it.

[holdenboy]

Yeah, depending on what type of pod youre going to use/make....you will probably need to cut a hole in the door interior/metal. Its possible the mount them without cutting the hole, but their low frequency response will be impaired.....basically this just means they wont produce much lower than 100hz as good as if they had the door cavity as an enlcosure.

Hitting the metal isnt good for the speaker, but in some installs ive done this was un-avoidable and in my opinion didnt make that much difference. You should damage any of the components in the door cavity though.


Just a quick question though....how much power are you giving the Type Rs? If it is only 70wrms i would atleast double that firstly and see how you go then...those speakers LOVE 150-200wrms ive found. Also might be worth looking into sound deadening and/or sealing up the service holes in between the door interior and the door itself.

[Deutscher]

Yeah, depending on what type of pod youre going to use/make....you will probably need to cut a hole in the door interior/metal. Its possible the mount them without cutting the hole, but their low frequency response will be impaired.....basically this just means they wont produce much lower than 100hz as good as if they had the door cavity as an enlcosure.

Hitting the metal isnt good for the speaker, but in some installs ive done this was un-avoidable and in my opinion didnt make that much difference. You should damage any of the components in the door cavity though.


Just a quick question though....how much power are you giving the Type Rs? If it is only 70wrms i would atleast double that firstly and see how you go then...those speakers LOVE 150-200wrms ive found. Also might be worth looking into sound deadening and/or sealing up the service holes in between the door interior and the door itself.

Problem with adding more wrms is that my amp only puts out Alpine 75rms x 4 (Alberts fault.. they recommended it when I brought all the gear). Unless I bridge the channels. You meant I "Shouldn't" damage any component? or should? The speaker would be like 1cm from the metal (I can make more space ... just means pods will be sticking out further, trying to keep it as close as possible... in your opinion what should the distance be from metal to back of magnet?)... not touching it. If I cut a hole in the door trim .. would that be better idea? the metal is like directly behind it tho .. so guess wouldn't be worth it.

[holdenboy]

Firstly i would try giving the Type Rs more power than 75wrms, really mate they come alive with 150-200wrms....totally different sounding speakers altogether.

It will be cheaper and no chopping of door trims to upgrade the amp, by the way what have got running off the rear two channels of that amp?

Might be an idea to just bridge those channels just to have a listen.

[Deutscher]

Firstly i would try giving the Type Rs more power than 75wrms, really mate they come alive with 150-200wrms....totally different sounding speakers altogether.

It will be cheaper and no chopping of door trims to upgrade the amp, by the way what have got running off the rear two channels of that amp?

Might be an idea to just bridge those channels just to have a listen.

Ahhh... I know what you mean by 150-200wrms it clicked .. you're referring to the new Alpine Type R splits.. which are rated for 110wrms (from memory), I've got the older model which are only 70wrms. Don't think mine could handle that much power . I've got another set of splits previously in the back (I've taken back ones out and want to put them in the front as well).

[holdenboy]

Even though those are the older models, and rated at 70wrms......i would still feed them a minimum of 150wrms. My splits are 60wrms and im feeding them 150wrms and they love it, have done this for over two years now.

[Deutscher]

Even though those are the older models, and rated at 70wrms......i would still feed them a minimum of 150wrms. My splits are 60wrms and im feeding them 150wrms and they love it, have done this for over two years now.

What kind of splits are you using? 150 is double my rated power.. have you fed 150wrms to the Alpine SPR-17LS 6-½ Type-R Component Speakers ?? (Amazon.com: Alpine SPR-17LS 6-½ Type-R Component Speakers: Electronics), The amplifier I have to run my 2x splits is a Alpine MRV-F345 (Alpine Electronics of Australia)... Wouldn't it cause problems running it in bridged?

Edit: 150 x 2 at 2ohms?

Edit 2: My bad... never understood this ohm's halving etc. Read up about it ... this makes it quite simple "So, a four ohm speaker stays a four ohm speaker, if
it's hooked to one channel, a bridged channel, a toaster, or the wall socket." .... it even made me laugh.

[holdenboy]

My splits are only Response 6" splits......and i have fed those splits 200wrms before without any problems at all, provided the HPF and gains are set properly you wont have a drama.

Just wire the front ones up in bridged mode off that amp, ensure the gains / HPFs are set the same (also make sure the h/u fader setting are in the middle). Then have a good listen. I'd set the HPFs to approx 70-80hz for the time being.

That amp dosent give me a bridged output power (i.e. 150wrms x 2 @ 4 ohm), but i would imagine its somewhere along those lines.

[Deutscher]

My splits are only Response 6" splits......and i have fed those splits 200wrms before without any problems at all, provided the HPF and gains are set properly you wont have a drama.

Just wire the front ones up in bridged mode off that amp, ensure the gains / HPFs are set the same (also make sure the h/u fader setting are in the middle). Then have a good listen. I'd set the HPFs to approx 70-80hz for the time being.

That amp dosent give me a bridged output power (i.e. 150wrms x 2 @ 4 ohm), but i would imagine its somewhere along those lines.

# 75 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms (150 watts RMS x 4 at 2 ohms)
# 300 watts RMS x 1 (channels 3/4 only) in bridged mode

How can I bridge to get the same output? It's saying channels 3/4 will produce 300wrms. How would I go about connecting it up?

[acarmody]

Normally you just use the positive from channel 1 and the negative from channel 2 for the 1st speaker, and the positive from channel 3 and the negative from channel 4 for the 2nd speaker.

[holdenboy]

Yeah thats right acarmody, but ive even downloaded the user manual and it dosent specify you can bridge all four channels, just channels 3 and 4 for some odd reason.

I'd give it a try anyway Deutscher.

[Deutscher]

I swear... every plan I make ... it never works out. I've gotta have a think about what my next step is. I've read that a speaker is alright unless it physically touches metal, therefore I could put the other splits in the front as well... would make it easier.. wouldn't have to adjust amp settings etc... just drill couple holes in door (which I don't really wanna do (I can see it going wrong)). Or I could do what holdenboy mentioned and bridge the channels ... meaning my second set of splits are uselessly lying around.

How would say 150rms from 1 speaker sound compared to 2x 70rms?

[acarmody]

Yeah I used to have a Alpine MRP-F250 and the manual never said anything about bridging 1/2 and 3/4, but in both mine and this case they say they are 4/3/2 channel amps. And before I stopped using my amp I did have 2 x splits running and it worked fine. Silly Alpine never worked out that some people might actually use it as a 2-channel.

[Deutscher]

Yeah I used to have a Alpine MRP-F250 and the manual never said anything about bridging 1/2 and 3/4, but in both mine and this case they say they are 4/3/2 channel amps. And before I stopped using my amp I did have 2 x splits running and it worked fine. Silly Alpine never worked out that some people might actually use it as a 2-channel.

Haha. why would you want 1 speaker and a sub hooked up? isn't that a bit strange or have I got it wrong? and what kind of sub would be rated at 300 some unknown brand I've got a 2600x1ohm amp to run my sub

[acarmody]

4 channel is for running 4 normal speaker (2 x splits and 2 x 6x9s), 3 channel is for two normal speakers and a sub, and 2 channel is for running two splits or 2 crappy subs.

YOU'VE GOT A WHAT AMP?? You have a mono that powerful and you are running some pretty average splits!!! What model mono is that?

[Deutscher]

4 channel is for running 4 normal speaker (2 x splits and 2 x 6x9s), 3 channel is for two normal speakers and a sub, and 2 channel is for running two splits or 2 crappy subs.

YOU'VE GOT A WHAT AMP?? You have a mono that powerful and you are running some pretty average splits!!! What model mono is that?

It's a Hifonic Brutus BXI2608 (2600 at 1ohm stable), my sub is a Hifonic Olympus 2412 (12" 2400 at 1ohm) (I wanted the 15" version (same rms tho))

Edit: Only problem is .. I don't got a boot anymore ... my entire boot contains 1x gas tank, 1x sub box.

[acarmody]

Nice bass equipment, but you need to balance the system more. More treble and mid. And yeah boot space disappears fast doesn't it? I got 2 x 2cubic feet sub boxes in my boot and lets just say I ain't doing any grocery shopping.

[Deutscher]

Nice bass equipment, but you need to balance the system more. More treble and mid. And yeah boot space disappears fast doesn't it? I got 2 x 2cubic feet sub boxes in my boot and lets just say I ain't doing any grocery shopping.

Haha nice. I ended up going with a 2.75 cubic box .. for "optimal sound", my GF is getting the same sub so I might try the SPL box for my sub which is I think (from memory) 3.25 cubics (actually ... I don't know if that'll fit in my boot ) and give her my old box. Never had a SPL box before and I do like my drum n bass, hardstyle type music so might give it a go. I want to upgrade my system but .... the lack of money seems to play a big role in my life.. specially cus I'm a uni student. On some of my songs I do have concerns about my back windscreen.. I can see it move when the subs cranking .... it is a 1996 car .

Hey! I got a question while I got you guys here. I use MP3Gain to normalize my music to 89dB (track and album gain), when I got my car tuned and asked the fellas what the max is what I can turn it up to. They said 28 (on my head unit), but this was from testing their CD's not mine. I have a feeling they don't use MP3Gain or similiar software... before I normalize my music it's a lot louder because usually the song is at 95-105dB. When I get my original CD's out they are the same.. (Default for MP3Gain is 89db, that's why I used 89dB and also, one some skits etc anything above 89dB tells me it's clipping), because there is an increase of dB gain wouldn't that mean increase in voltage/rms? (I'm running at 89dB at 28 (on head unit), they use say 95dB (on head unit), wouldn't theirs be louder)

Holdenboy, you do car stereos ... do you bother with normalizing music? If what dB gain do you use on your tracks?

Edit: When I questioned Alberts about the matter, they didn't have a clue what I was on about.

[acarmody]

I'm with Alberts, I got no clue.

[Deutscher]

I'm with Alberts, I got no clue.

Haha, maybe my explanation wasn't very good.

Different CD's & MP3's have different dB gains... you know when you play one song and it's very quiet so you turn up the volume, then the next song comes on and it's blasting out your speakers and you turn it back down etc.

That's because of the dB gain difference. Some burning programs allow you to normalize your music, like Nero you got a box you can tick to normalize the audio (I just don't know what the default setting is, so I use a 3rd party program).

MP3Gain allows you to adjust the volume on ur tracks.. so you don't have to continually adjust ur volume dial. The thing is, an increase in volume usually means an increase of RMS doesn't it?

Edit: An increase of 3dB is doubling the voltage (so I've read). So (example) if your speaker puts out say 100dB using 10Volts, to get 103dB you need 20Volts. (I know it's a bizarre example but think it's easiest to explain a point)

Edit2: More Volume = More voltage = More RMS (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

[acarmody]

My best guess would be no. When you tune your amps you set the gain to be precise for the voltage coming out of your H/U. But the voltage coming out of your H/U is constantly fluctuating with the music. When the song is playing the voltage rises and drops in accordance with the music being loud or soft, so if you have to play a song with the volume up a few notches but the song is quieter on the CD than the H/U puts out the same voltage, therefore the same RMS.

Besides I change the volume for nearly every song anyway, some I like louder, some I like softer.

But that is my best GUESS, so if I'm wrong than someone please correct me.

[acarmody]

Edit: An increase of 3dB is doubling the voltage (so I've read). So (example) if your speaker puts out say 100dB using 10Volts, to get 103dB you need 20Volts. (I know it's a bizarre example but think it's easiest to explain a point)

Edit2: More Volume = More voltage = More RMS (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

Bah, this is more my father's field.

An increase of 3dB is double the VOLUME, so your speakers puts out 100dB using 1 WATT, than it requires 2 Watts for 103dB.

So more volume using the same reference (89dB:1watt) = more voltage = more RMS.

Again correct me if I am wrong.

[Deutscher]

Bah, this is more my father's field.

An increase of 3dB is double the VOLUME, so your speakers puts out 100dB using 1 WATT, than it requires 2 Watts for 103dB.

So more volume using the same reference (89dB:1watt) = more voltage = more RMS.

Again correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, I think that's it. So in my case ... the alberts CD would be putting out more voltage/rms than my tracks would.

Also on another note, you mentioned that voltage increases and decreases throughout the song, I have tested with Sine Waves but don't think it's working right, because some of my songs give higher voltage levels than the test signal (both at 89db), but I have hooked up a voltmeter to the terminals and pressed max and just ran a lot of my music and got the max reading and judged it from there.

Edit: What I'm trying to work out is if playing my music to 28 on my deck with my music will change the voltage/rms to what Alberts have told me. For instance say Alberts put my splits to the test and they got max continuous volume at 28 on deck at 70wrms with 95dB gain (my splits), would mean that my tracks at 89dB gain would mean 60wrms (random number... but less than 70) at 28 on deck.

[acarmody]

This sort of stuff isn't my forte so I'd be inclined to wait for an answer from a real expert like Holdenboy. But I'll have a crack at it anyway.

If everything remains the same like, H/U volume, song/tone, amp settings, and speakers. Than a track recorded at 100dB will be louder at the speakers than a track recorded at 89dB. But in saying this, if your amplifier is putting out its maximum RMS (say 150WRMS) with a track at 89dB than playing a track recorded at 100dB won't sound any louder because that amp can still only put out 150WRMS, so it would sound the same at the speakers, just more distorted.

[holdenboy]

Gotta remember guys, just cause and amp puts out 150wrms @ 4 ohm, dosent mean it puts that out all day everyday, even with a test tone/sine wave. Your speakers' impedance will rise almost immediately when playing, so that 150wrms turns into 60-100wrms without much delay. Hence the reason for me saying to you to give those splits 150+wrms.

As far as the CD recording thingo goes, im no real expert on the matter but when tuning a system they should be using one of your CDs, not their own....all music is different and say things like D&B differ greatly from Pop for example.

acarmody is on the right track there, * i think * thats if the head-unit itself dosent do its own leveling before sending it the the pre-outs. Not sure on that though (as if you cant tell haha). I just tune the systems i install with the customers cd/s.