Help needed...VP motor on Ecotech ECU? It runs and drives but its not great :(

[toyo truck]

Hi Guys,

I have an RN106 4WD Hilux that I have recently converted to a VP 3.8L V6.
It runs and drives OK but I have a few niggling issues after the conversion
that I need someone with more experience tinkering with GM wiring/ECUs.

Thing is the truck is using HEAPS of fuel like 20L+/100kms
And it feels like its not making the right amount of power.
Also the gearbox changes are very odd.

Now the other night I was doing some investigation, and it looks like I'm running
a VP motor (series 2 I think from the newer coilpacks), on an VR ECU?? (bought it as a 'kit' )
On top of that, I'm 99% sure I'm running the electronic 4L60E auto box.

I've heard of people running an VR motor on a re-mapped VP ECU (808) but not the
other way round?

Could this be causing excess fuel consumption and strange driving characteristics?
How can the VP (with a MAP sensor) run on a VR ECU surely this would not be the most efficient?

Thanks guys, I've tried everything else this is my last hope and I'm going crazy trying
to fix it. Fuel consumption alone is insane!

[jonvaupel]

Hi, I am sure your problem is a mismatch between hardware and software. A VP V6 uses a multipoint fuel injection system where as the ECO tech uses a sequential fuel injection system, you can use a sequential injection ecu with a multipoint engine but your fuel consumption will be at least double if not more and your engine will run like it is overfuelling or even flooding, eg lots of black smoke under accelleration. The solution is to change your fuel injectors to the later sequential type same as what would have been used in the Eco v6.
Also if you are using an ECO v6 ECU you must use the ECO wiring harness and all the relative sensors eg the vp only uses 1 or 2 O2 sensors whereas the Eco motor uses 3, if you are using a 4L60E Trans the Eco ECU will work with this trans however if you have the incorrect harness on the engine and am using the VP Thottle Position Sensor, the ECU will be getting incorrect readings from the sensors and will incorrectly shift the trans accordingly. With the earlier mechanical trans TH700R you simply adjusted the shift cable to fix this problem but with the 4L60E there is no adjustments the trans is entirely controlled by the computer and the computer makes these decision entirely based on the information it is receiving for the sensors, so you can understand that if the wiring and sensors were incorrect or even no existent, the computer is trying to make decisions based on incorrect data.
Now finally when there is such a mismatch and the data the ECU receives is beyond the parameters permitted, the computer realizes there is something drastically wrong and puts the whole system into what is called Limp Home Mode basically this is the computer shutting down virtually all its systems and only keeping enough working so that you can drive your vehicle home or to the dealer, when a ECU goes into limp home mode it drastically richens up the fuel mixtures, shuts down all timing advances except for basic, and alter the shift changes to very basic so that you can limp the car home. My Guess is that this where your ECU is at, the best way to diagnose this is to borrow a comprehensive scan tool that can give you real time data, hook it up to the diagnostic port and run your engine and see if it goes into closed loop, if it remains in open loop as it will begin at startup your ECU is in LIMP HOME MODE and you need to investigate everything above and see why. Hope this helps.

[toyo truck]

Hi mate,
Sorry for the delay of my reply, been flat out at work lately.

OK I have really done my research into this as I suspected the same thing!

Let me start with exactly what I have...
VP Motor (No CAM Angle Sensor, has a MAP not a MAF, has bracket for kick-down cable, but no cable as its a 4L60E.
4L60E Motor (Has large plug on side of box connected to loom, no kick-down cable)
VR ECU (States VR AUTO PCM on the ecu label)
VR LOOM (Wrecker markings on loom say "VR AUTO")

So basically I am running a VP engine off a VR ECU and Loom!!
(I am presuming it is an early VR V6 which was not ecotech, but still used a 4L60E and CAM Angle Sensor aswell as non batch fire injection and a MAP sensor not MAF).

So this may well be the cause of my issues mate. Its definately running a VP throttle position sensor so you might be right about the
ecu trying to incorrectly shift the box based on bad data from sensors.

I do not have a scan-tool, but I pulled the ECU flashing codes and got
44 - Exhaust Lean (dunno why this is if it is overfuelling - I notice a little black smoke on idle when 4WDing up steep inclines?
and
48 - CAM Angle Sensor Missing. (this is due to the VR loom having a connector but no sensor to plug into it and ECU realises its missing).

My auto box shifts all the way up from 1st -2nd -3rd - 4th and back down again so it can't be in limp hom mode as you only get 3rd and manually
shift to 2nd right? (No 1st and no Overdrive).

So maybe its the mismatch in sensors thats causing grief?

At any rate, I am going to hook up a diagnostic scan tool and grab the data off the ECU. I'll let you know what it shows.
This will tell me almost definately what is the problem. The motor mechanically works fine, as does the 4L60E, its just not driving the way
I would like, very underpowered for a commo v6 and not very responsive. so its gotta be an ECU/Timing thing.
I've heard that VP motors run a different fuel map and timing to the VR motors so if I am running on a VR ECU this is what I will be running.


cheers guys,
Bart

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

Firstly, don't take any notice of what jonvaupel says, as you have a VR ECU which is still the Buick. The Ecotec came out in the VS not the VR so everything he said is irelevent.

Your issue would most likely be due to the VP having no cam sensor. You can get it switched off though through a memcal tune.

The code 44 may be a vacuum leak.

[toyo truck]

Hey "not an abba fan". Me either

In all fairness to jonvaupel the title was originally ECOTECH as I thought all VRs were ECOTECH until I did a heap of
research to confirm this. I thought the last models of VR were running the ecotech? but either way it does not apply now that I have
confirmed I am running a VP motor, on a VR ECU and VR auto loom.

Yes I have no Cam Angle Sensor, and yes I could get it removed from the ECU, or I could fit a CAM Angle Sensor to my motor with the magnet p/u.
Problem is this will only give me sequential injection right (Seq injection is controlled by the cam angle sensor. Without this sensor ECU will revert
back to batch injection).
I will still be stuck running the VP motor on a VR fuel Map and Timing, which is just not going to work all that well given the difference between
the VR and VN/VP motors. And running baatch injection on a ECU designed to run sequential will be wasting a heap of juice I rekon.

My options as I see them are
1) Run a VP fuel map and timing bin on the VR ECU, but retain the 4L60E control. - Easiest option by far
2) Swap to a TH700, and a VP/VN ECU and VP/VN Loom - The "proper" way of fixing this issue but $$$ and lots o effort.
3) Swap to a VP/VN ECU and VP/VN Loom and fit an Toyota 4WD R151 5 speed manual behind the commodore v6. - very expensive.

So I am currently making up some stuff to log the data from my ECU so I can see exactly what the issues are from the ECU perspective.
Will be very interesting indeed to see whats happening.

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

If it is injecting too much fuel you shouldn't be getting the code 44.

The VR doesn't have sequential injection, it has batch injection, that is, it fires the injectors in groups of two. The VN/VP fired all injectors at the same time. Not having a cam sensor shouldn't make that much difference though.

A cam sensor will make it run a bit leaner as there are less injectors firing. The fact that yours blows black smoke indicates rich running not lean.

Is the coolant temp sensor OK? Not the sender for the gauge, but the sensor for the ECU.

Also, do you have your intake air temp sensor in the intake pipe?

[Ghost]

Try Downgrading the ecu as seeing the engine isn't ecotec

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

Neither is the ECU....

[toyo truck]

Thanks for your reply mate,

OK definately pulling 44 code on the ECU. Like ALL the time. Have cleared it by removing fuse, comes back as soon as I accellerate moderately.
I know what your saying though, how's it running lean with too much fuel??
Thing is I definately get black smoke on idle and it smells very much like fuel in the engine bay and outside it. Exhaust smells very rich?

So I'm not sure why this is, maybe the ECU is completely confused by what it is seeing?
Sorry I got mixed up with the batch vs sequential on ecotech.
So I thought that the batch injection was controlled by the cam angle sensor? IE tells the motor which cylinder is about to fire/exhaust.
without the Cam angle sensor, and the magnet pickup on the cam, I'm guessing that it won't be doing batch injection as the ECU won't know
exactly when to fire the injectors.

So I could fit the Cam sensor, and that will use less fuel right, but I'd still be running the VP motor on the VR tune.
VPs require more timing and a different fuel map to a VR right? This could be causing me grief bigtime

I beleive the coolant temp sensor is fine. Thermos kick in and out as needed, no code on the ECU for this? Guage also works fine.
I'm guessing the ECU controls the thermos based on this sensor? so yeah should be fine if this is the case.

I'm not so sure about the intake air temp sensor in the intake pipe? I have no sensors anywhere on my intake pipe. Just my POD filter,
into some alloy piping at a 90 round bend and straight into the throttle body. Where is it usually located? What would it mean if I did not
have one of these? Wouldn't the ECU register a code saying something regarding intake temps?

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

The IAT is at the rear of the intake on the drivers side (I think).

Could be a faulty O2 sensor telling the ECU it is lean so it is throwing more fuel in.

Have you checked for vacuum leaks?

The cam sensor tells which injectors to fire, yes, but without it, it defaults back to the same injection method the VP uses anyway.

I would get a memcal tuned to run the electronic auto and VP tune. Cheapest and easiest option. Get hold of the1 or Delcowizzard on here, they will sort you out.

[toyo truck]

Hey mate,

I don't think I have one then. My intake pipe is alloy piping into a POD filter so is different altogether than commodore intake.
So I need a IAT sensor in the mix?? Why is this not pulling an error code at the ECU? I'll go double check tonight though.

so could be faulty O2 sensor hmmm, this is something I have not checked yet. Might look at replacing this sensor and see if any
improvement.

I have checked for vacuum leaks there appear to be none. Mind you it would be hard to find them with the amount of intake noise
coming out of the POD filter...sounds like a mini tornado in there, can be clearly heard with bonnett down?

So the CAM sensor not being there is actually making the injectors fire as "normal" for this motor. thats a good thing!
I am just about to hook up the ECU to a PC and do some logging of the data, and check the memcal version etc.

Might speak to DelcoWizzard or the1 and see if they have a tune such as this to run the VP tune on the VR ECU so it can still do the box.
Question is, will a VP motor on a VR ECU (running a VP tune) run as well as a VP on a VP loom and ECU??

Thanks so much mate

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

There is no code for the IAT on the VR.

While it is idling, give it a spray around the intake manifold and throttle body with Aerostart and see if the idle picks up to check for vacuum leaks.

The engine will run fine with a VR ECU running a VP tune.

[toyo truck]

Hey mate,

Taking my truck to an EFI tuner as I have not got my interface working yet.
He will hopefully tell me what tune is in the memcal and what is going wrong.

Sorry I have a really basic question, if I have a VP on a VR loom and ECU and 4L60E box
can you tell me how a VP motor can even run on a VR loom? I understand that the ECU could fudge its way through but if the actual
wiring is different, and the sensors are different at all, this will be an issue right?
Wouldn't the connections or sensor voltages be different?

If I had put a VP motor into a VR (in a commodore bog stock) would I have the same problems?
Surely I am not the first to do this?? How did the car run after the swap? and was fuel consumption increased?

Cheers,
Bart

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

The engine itself is basically the same. Just the timing and injection pulses that are different. As far as I know, apart from the cam angle sensor, all the others are the same.

You will know more once the tune is read off the memcal, but it will still run. The loom itself is just wiring, the ECU reads the voltages from the sensors so it doesn't really matter what loom you have as long as the sensors are sending the signal to the correct pin on the ECU.

[toyo truck]

Hey guys,

OK was lucky enough to get my MEMCAL read by one of the best tuners around.

We hooked up a laptop to the ECU and went for a drive round the block to see what we could see.

Problem presented itself IMMEDIATELY!!!

Its DRASTICALLY under-fuelling (although is showing black sooty plugs and exhaust which suggests rich running).
So the more I push the accellerator the more the fuel delivery drops off?!!??!! Its crazy!
I checked pressure at the fuel pump outlet and it was easy 90psi with the guage stuck in the end of the pipe so it
pumping well. Might check the pressure at the motor next to make sure no issues there.
What else could be stopping fuel delivery on a VP.
we can see the ECU is trying to compensate for lean running the whole time, so the ECU is not "stopping" or reducing the fuel,
it must be blocked somewhere in the line maybe??

When I go to WOT the thing pings its head off and I can see the knock sensor come on and retard the timing by 7 degrees!
then it slowly recovers once I back off the throttle.

We helped it sorta by upping the fuel by 20 points accross the rev range, but its still under fueled?

At least I know what is making the truck run like shite now!

Now... HOW TO FIX IT!!!

Thanks for all your help on this one.

Cheers,
Bart

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

How is the fuel pressure regulator? Pinch off the vacuum line that goes to it and see if it improves.

[toyo truck]

Ok so thats the small cylinder thing on the rear of the left hand side fuel rail right?
this one? found this pic off this forum too ;0)


So if this is a dud it will cause issues mate?
when you say crimp the tube, this is the one going to the throttle body yeah?
what does this do and how does it work? the more you accellerate the less it sucks through the tube
and the more fuel is delivered through the pressure regulator?
blocking this off will this make the pressure regulator deliver more fuel?

The car seems to get enough fuel at idle, just loses it when i accelerate.

Cheers,
bart

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

If the regulator is stuffed, it can be stuck open, so it is just sending fuel back to the tank via the return line. At idle, there is enough fuel to keep it running, but as revs increase, fuel delivery decreases.

Pinching the tube holds it shut, but if it is stuck open, then pinching won't do anything. Try swapping it for another one to see if it makes a difference.

[toyo truck]

Hey mate,

I just priced up a O2 Sensor and Pressure Regulator.

4-wire O2 Sensor from Holden = $110.
4-wire O2 Sensor from Autobarn = $133!!

Fuel Pressure Regulator from Holden = $220!
Fuel Pressure Regulator from Autobarn = $90!?? wha??

So the tuner rekons I should run the genuine holden O2 sensor, so I'll go with genuine GM for that.

but for the fuel pressure regulator, would I be OK going for the autobarn one? (And save myself $130 bux)?
Or would a 2nd hand pressure regulator be good enough to use to see any difference.
Obviously to loose almost all fuel when at WOT must be a fairly ruined press regulator?

Anyone on here got a spare fuel press regulator I could swap on for a quick test round the block before shelling out $90 bux

Cheers,
Bart

[toyo truck]

Hey Guys,

OK am going to spend this weekend diagnosing fuel delivery issues.

So I'm gonna check
1) lift pump to surge tank
2) primary fuel pump to motor (its 90psi with a guage fitted to the outlet pipe so flows really well?) need to check pressure at injector
rail now right?
3) All fuel lines will be checked for adequate flow
4) All filters checked for adequate flow
5) Fuel pressure regulator - will swap out with another

What else could I check that might be causing poor fuel delivery or causing it to drop off as I accellerate?

Cheers,
Bart

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

Is the gauge fitted in line or is it a T piece?

I would check the pressure up at the rail too. I'd also get the injectors cleaned and flow checked.

[toyo truck]

Hey mate,

The guage is not fitted all the time, we just put the thread of the guage straight into the outlet from the pump
(Effectively blocking the outlet with the guage - it was the only one I had on me at the time)
So you rekon check the pressure at the injector rail... any idea of what it SHOULD be on a VP commodore?
Like 45 or something? 90 psi seems very high indeed.

I removed the injectors and they look very clean, but I might just get em flow tested.
How much to get em cleaned and flow tested usually?

So it goes like this right? In order from the motor backwards...so I know what to tick off.
INJECTORS
INJECTOR RAIL
FUEL PRESSURE REG
FUEL LINE
COMMODORE FUEL FILTER
WALBRO IN LINE FUEL PUMP
SURGE TANK
LIFT PUMP
MAIN FUEL TANK
(And return lines and vapour line)

Cheers,
Bart

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

If you check the pressure at the rail and it's fine, then the only thing that could be a problem are the injectors. If it's not them, then it is tune related.

Pressure at the rail should be around 45psi.

[Cheap6]

Hey mate,

The guage is not fitted all the time, we just put the thread of the guage straight into the outlet from the pump
(Effectively blocking the outlet with the guage - it was the only one I had on me at the time)
So you rekon check the pressure at the injector rail... any idea of what it SHOULD be on a VP commodore?
Like 45 or something? 90 psi seems very high indeed.

I removed the injectors and they look very clean, but I might just get em flow tested.
How much to get em cleaned and flow tested usually?

So it goes like this right? In order from the motor backwards...so I know what to tick off.
INJECTORS
INJECTOR RAIL
FUEL PRESSURE REG
FUEL LINE
COMMODORE FUEL FILTER
WALBRO IN LINE FUEL PUMP
SURGE TANK
LIFT PUMP
MAIN FUEL TANK
(And return lines and vapour line)

Cheers,
Bart

How did it go sorting this weekend?

Yes, 90 psi is very high - 625kPa. Correct pressure for VP is manifold absolute pressure + 250kPa so 280-350kPa absolute, 180-250kPa gauge, idle to WOT. A little lower than 280/180kPa on decel.

Don't know your manifold pressure? Measure the voltage output from the MAP sensor - there's only earth, nominal 5V input and the sensor output so which wire will be easy to determine - and scale it. The sensor output is very nearly linear wrt voltage vs manifold pressure; 4.9V is 100kPa = engine off or WOT, so voltage times 20 = ~kPa. (The full specs for the sensor are on the web in various places as it's used in all sorts of GM stuff and even Jeeps.)

A 'T' fitting and barbed tails from Pirtek or Enzed to enable checking fuel pressure while running might be cheaper than random parts replacement.

I think that it's more likely to be an installation problem rather than any fault with the driveline or ECM as a VR PCM, even running batch fire - all 6 injectors together - will run a VP (or VR without cam sensor) fine. There's very little mechanical differences, other than the cam sensor, between VP and VR V6.

Where is the return from the fuel pressure reg. on the injector rail plumbed into; the main fuel tank or the surge tank? Could the high pressure pump be emptying the surge tank faster than the lift pump is filling it?

[toyo truck]

OK...ITS SORTED!!!!

As you know I have had ENDLESS amounts of issues with my Hilux V6 conversion... uses 22L+ per 100kms... no power... poor gear selection... poor driveability... you name it.
Like many of you on here I ended up spending a FORTUNE trying to fix it,
And I want you to all stop and read this before spending ANOTHER CENT on your truck trying to improve it.

Now for the first time in a year, it is running REALLY well!! Feels like it has DOUBLE the power, but only uses around HALF the fuel!
So stoked right now!!!! YAY!

So how did we do it?? Well, after talking to about a thousand “experts” (Including the place that sold the conversion kits ) and then spending big $$$ at so called “EFI Tuners” to try and resolve the issue, I have finally hooked up with a master tuner who actually knows his stuff, and has been tuning anything with a DELCO computer for the last 3 decades. This guy can tune any Holden motor from the Walkinshaw VL to the new 6.0L V8s!
They all use DELCO ECUs, and this guy can not only fix them, but make them custom tuned to your specification! for me 4WDING!!!

He hooked up my ECU to his laptop and we drove around for an hour or so, the whole time he’s making changes on his own in-house real-time software (yes he and his son wrote it from scratch) and then asking me to WOT and back off so he can see the A/F ratio and make changes accordingly. On top of this he also managed to re-map the gearbox so its shifts are better suited to a lux on 35”s. Then he took all of this and applied it to a “Police” spec build for the 3.8 V6, so now my lux is a “ex-chaser” lux . I also got him to make the thermo fan kick in at 93deg instead of 98 (which is stock and IMHO too high for a 4wd application).

So yeah it’s a rocket now, takes off the line hard and pulls all the way through to 100km/h + no worries. Plus its got so much more grunt on and off road. And on top of all those good things, the fuel consumption is at least twice as good as it was, plus the fan kicks in much sooner now which is
keeping the engine bay heat WAAAAAY down. (I would reccomend this alone for ANY commo-lux conversion as it just makes it all run way cooler).

Anyone who has done a Holden conversion to your lux or jeep or whatever, I highly suggest you go and see Richard from ’s Electronics. The bloke is an absolute GENIUS with EFi tuning! And now he has worked out a good map for a V6 into a 4WD hilux (or whatever 4B you want to put it in), he can give you more power, better economy, customised shift patterns for dedicated crawlers, and most importantly, get your V6 conversion running RIGHT! Plus you will not meet a nicer bloke to work with. He’s honest, up front and will not try to rip you off…unlike a lot of other “tuners” out there that just take the piss and often just sell re-badged pre programmed chips. TRUST ME I KNOW!

Go to a REAL tuner and get a CUSTOM tune… you’ll never look back!
Call Dick on 9542 5544 or check out his website its…Dicks Electronics RTLS1: News

Cheers,
Bart