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  #1  
Old 18-06-2005, 01:38 PM
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Default Few questions - S/C Ecotec

Hi there, just a few questions.

Does the air to air intercooler allow for more boost safely from the supercharger? I believe 10psi is safe? Does the Intercooler make 14psi+ any safer?

Speaking of 14+, is it possible to get more boost out of the Eaton stocko S/C?

276rwhp from the Red Hot VX with
FIT 10psi Boost Upgrade Kit
FIT 1.9:1 High Ratio Roller Rockers
Pacemaker Extractors
1 1/4" Genie Exhaust
FIT 81°C Cooler Thermostat
FIT Heat Shield
Kalmaker Tuning

Let's say I was to use the 14psi pulley and Intercooler on top of all this, what is realistic to expect from a system like this? As a guesstimation i'd say around 320-330rwhp?
How much of the internals/fuel lines etc. would have to be upgraded for HP like that?
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  #2  
Old 22-06-2005, 07:19 PM
 

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with an intercooler you can safely (to an extent) run 14 psi, i say to an exteact because it all depends on the actual engine itself and so on.
i would say you would be looking at at least 330rwhp
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  #3  
Old 25-07-2005, 12:23 PM
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I asked chiptorque that question too and was told that you can fit a 16psi pulley to the supercharger with the air to air intercooler fitted because there is a dramatic loss of pressure through the intercooleing plumbing, he said that when you pump 16psi into the engine you end up with 10psi back at the engine but you will still make around 45 extra horsepower at the wheels due to the cooler and higher density air at the engine
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  #4  
Old 25-07-2005, 12:49 PM
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i dont know about you guys, but 6psi is a pretty big drop through plumbing and the cooler...i know that with the cooler it would be more efficient combustion wise, but the charger would have a limit to what it can blow efficiently...so if to get 10psi at the manifold, you need to run the blower at 16psi...see what i am getting at? that's if that figure is true....no offence blofly...
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  #5  
Old 26-07-2005, 12:42 AM
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none taken just relaying information I received from chiptorque however I do remember louies VN supercharged V6 (charge6) and that was running with a machined down yella terra 20PSI snout and F.I.T. air to air intercooler too
heres the web page describing the pressure drop from the intercooling effect
http://www.v6supercharged.com.au/dynosheet.asp?DynoID=1
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Last edited by blofly; 26-07-2005 at 01:50 AM.
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  #6  
Old 26-12-2005, 06:34 AM
 

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I dont know about the horse power gains but I can partly answer your questions based on physics...

When you compress any type of gas you are appying energy to the gas to confine it within a smaller volume or are confining more gas within the same volume. The effect is the same, the gas particles are closer together per cubic measurement and also with more kinetic energy. This effect causes the gas to heat up more than it would be in it's normal state due to the particles colliding into each other more frequently. You can demontrate this to yourself by pumping up any tyre with a metal pump - you will feel the pump body get really hot from the heat transfer of the gas, the more gas you compress into the tyre.

Hot intake mix into a motor is a killer, it causes pre-ignition - pinging that will ruin your motor. So increasing intake pressures increases the likelhood of this happening. I have read on various sites that if going over 10 PSI you should run an intercooler to counter act the effect of compressing the induction. On this page is figures gained from compression @ 14 PSI... under heading "Preliminary testing has shown results"

http://www.v6supercharged.com.au/cooler.asp

So to answer your question does an intercooler make 14 PSI safer...

Yes is the answer...
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  #7  
Old 26-12-2005, 12:12 PM
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoSkA
Hi there, just a few questions.

Does the air to air intercooler allow for more boost safely from the supercharger? I believe 10psi is safe? Does the Intercooler make 14psi+ any safer?

Speaking of 14+, is it possible to get more boost out of the Eaton stocko S/C?

276rwhp from the Red Hot VX with
FIT 10psi Boost Upgrade Kit
FIT 1.9:1 High Ratio Roller Rockers
Pacemaker Extractors
1 1/4" Genie Exhaust
FIT 81°C Cooler Thermostat
FIT Heat Shield
Kalmaker Tuning

Let's say I was to use the 14psi pulley and Intercooler on top of all this, what is realistic to expect from a system like this? As a guesstimation i'd say around 320-330rwhp?
How much of the internals/fuel lines etc. would have to be upgraded for HP like that?
This is my car that your quoting above....the 276rwhp was with it already running the FMIC and 17psi pulley
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  #8  
Old 26-12-2005, 07:45 PM
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I'll post a piece from an American forum Re- cooling of the charged air.
it's a good read i thought.

Quote:
If I'm not mistaken, one of the biggest advantages to s/c porting, besides increased airflow, is a decrease in intake temperature. Temperature, to me anyway, is a little more important. This is probably the main reason for the drop in KR.

If you have an understanding of adiabatic efficiency, I could explain this in more technical terms.
Simplest definition I could find. For any forced induction enthusiast, this is a good read and important to know.


Quote:
Forced induction compresses air, and as a law of physics the temperature of the air increases as a direct counterpart to its compression. A lot of engineering goes into trying to compensate for this fact in supercharging and turbocharging design.

The word "adiabatic" describes a process in which no heat is gained or lost - 100% adiabatic efficiency would be the perfect forced induction device, creating no heat gain whatsoever, probably impossible to achieve ever. And the closest anyone can come yet is around 80% efficiency.

The problem with heat is it defeats the original purpose - the hotter the air, the lower the density possible, and the extra power comes from dense air. Another problem from heat is ignition - the hotter the inlet air, the more tendency the engine will have towards detonation and pre-ignition (knock and ping), which damages the engine, besides diminishing performance. Drivers of blown vehicles tend to keep an eye on the temperature gauge.

The goal of efficient charging is to compress the air and to keep it cool, for maximum power. The cooler the intake charge, the denser the air and the more horsepower produced.

The greater the adiabatic efficiency with which a supercharger compresses air, the less the heat that gets added to the intake manifold. Efficiency is measured by the discharge air temperature at a given pressure. For 6 pounds of boost, a supercharger with intake air temperature of 185 degrees is more efficient than another at 190 degrees. Boost itself is only the measure of pressure the intake air is under, not an indication of the power produced as horsepower.

The Roots blower has the lowest adiabatic efficiency of all the forced induction designs (including the turbocharger, which has to start off with hot exhaust gases to deal with) - generally around 50 percent. The roots type is so inefficient because it doesn't compress the air directly, but delivers uncompressed air which wells into the intake manifold, becoming more compressed, but with additional heat gain from the turbulence and reverse flows of air mixing. Centrifugal superchargers can vary from 60% up to perhaps approaching 80% efficiency, as can turbochargers; both are more efficient at higher rpm, which is another way of calling them more inefficient at lower rpm. The twin screw supercharger normally delivers lower output temperatures, for adiabatic efficiencies of 70-80% across the whole rpm range.

Cooling the air before it goes into the engine has a major effect on performance. Intercoolers are the physical means of cooling the compressed air, radiator-like systems using air or water for cooling. Inter cooling reduces temperature, but reduces boost (pressure) too because of flow restriction as the air circulates through cooling, and also as a direct result of the temperature change itself - again that law of physics. But the net result is compressed (dense) air at a cooler temperature. Cooler air at lower boost will give more power than hotter air at higher boost, because cooler air can be denser than hotter air no matter how much boost you throw at it. Drag racers often use cold water and ice in the intercooler for tremendous power over the short term.

Intercoolers come as air cooled systems and as water cooled systems. Very often the efficiencies of modern chargers permit running without an intercooler especially in street or OEM applications, but for performance uses, in general optimal performance comes from intercooling.



Hope this explains it well enough.
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  #9  
Old 25-01-2006, 04:25 AM
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Exactly, Cooling the Discharged Air from the Factory M90 Makes a HUGE Difference to Horsepower !!

We typically see between 40-50kW from Intercooling the Factory M90 Supercharged V6 Commodores

More info can be found here:
http://www.v6supercharged.com.au/coolerplate.asp

Regards

Tonsta
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  #10  
Old 02-02-2006, 10:18 PM
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonsta V6 S/C
Exactly, Cooling the Discharged Air from the Factory M90 Makes a HUGE Difference to Horsepower !!

We typically see between 40-50kW from Intercooling the Factory M90 Supercharged V6 Commodores

More info can be found here:
http://www.v6supercharged.com.au/coolerplate.asp

Regards

Tonsta
Hey Tony,

When intercooling is applied and you guys go of to get these cars tuned
I was just wondering what A/F ratio & total ign timing is used @ WOT
to be making this amazing power.

cheers.
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  #11  
Old 03-02-2006, 08:18 PM
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We try to target around 12.2-12.5 : 1 A/F Ratio with 12.8 being about the very leanest you would want to run it without to still leave yourself enough headroom for safety margin.

Any richer than 12.1 and you start to loose a bit of power, so it's ideal too try and target the above mentioned range. We have seen some tuners richen up to 11.8:1 just to be on the extra safe side, it's all up to the individual tuner what they feel is best, safe and reliable.

With regards to Timing we usually try to target around 18* - 23* Total

Considering it's normally around 9* - 11* with 10psi and No Cooler, the above Timing numbers are a Huge Increase over Non-Intercooled numbers.

We can ADD almost 10* - 12* Timing to the mapping due to the "Better Quality of Charge Air" (increased density) being outputted after the cooler, which makes for BIG IMPROVEMENTS in:
- Power
- Torque
- Throttle Response
- Consistency


The Engine is definitely much happier in this realised new efficiency created from the addition of Intercooler. We have noticed on the FIT Calais and a few other guys have mentioned as well that even Fuel Economy Improves

Life is definitely far more fun with and Intercooler

... 200mtr long Power Burn-Outs - No Problems

... Low 13's High 12's - No Problems

Regards

Tonsta
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  #12  
Old 16-05-2006, 09:38 PM
 

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In physics the greek letter rho is used for density. It looks like a P. So P is used alot too, in this case I cant print rho so ill use P.

P = Mass divided by Volume.

Now by adding a intercooler we are increasing the volume of the space the air is in.
So obviously the density is going to drop.

14.7 psi is atmospheric pressure.
So a boost gauge that reads 14.7 is double the atmospheric pressure because the boost gauge reads the pressure relative to the atmopshere.

pV=nRT

T = the temp in kelvin
R = the universal gas constant.
n = number of moles of gas


Using this formula you can work out how hot your air is getting.

Or you can just use a thermometer

A drop of 6 psi is alot and does seem unfair. Im sure the guys at FIT are great engineers and have done everything possible to keep loss to a minimum.
Last time i saw figures about drops before and after an intercooler (it was in a turbo charged setup) the drops of pressure from the intercooler was only about half a psi, so i'm suprised to see 6 pound lost.

Its a compromise you pay for cooler air.

Last edited by ascension24; 17-05-2006 at 05:12 PM.
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