Random question, cold ar pushed into air intake increase horsepower... ??

[DmanVT]

Hi there, i have a really random question and im not thinking of doing this just curious as to what it would do,

My question is, what would happen if you had a tank, compressor and a solenoid valve and had the compressor pump air to fill the tank. Then if the tank had hose coming off it that led directly to the air intake, and the solenoid could be turned on to release the air at will.

Now a compressor will compress air and make it quite cold, and so therefore there is a burst of quick cold air straight into the intake.

What would it do?

Would it be basically like a small ( not as powerful ) momentary NOS system or would the head just not be able to cope with high pressures of air or what would happen?

Like i said im not thinking of doing this, as im just curious as to what would happen

Thank you, Darcy

[Drawnnite]

well how much PSI would you be looking at in this air compressor system. that could also have an effect.

personally i would have thought it would make it run very lean for that moment in time.
which would = less power?

[axemurderer101]

i would think the compressed air would just go back out through the air filter

[DmanVT]

well hypothetically speaking it could be as much pressure or as little as you wanted due to a flow regulator and things and i guess it would run lean but would it basically have a slight effect as a turbo? forcing cooler air into the engine?

I'm not sure :S haha thats why i asked :P

and yes it probably would go back through the filter, but i guess some of it would go to the engine wouldn't it?

[DmanVT]

what if the outlet of the tank was close to the plenum ?

[writeoff]

well how much PSI would you be looking at in this air compressor system. that could also have an effect.

personally i would have thought it would make it run very lean for that moment in time.
which would = less power?

Leaning it slightly and allowing it to breath wouldn't be such a bad thing to a certain extent.

Op, so essentially you are trying to create a forced induction yeah?

[DmanVT]

not thinking of doing this, well i dnt think haha but just wondering what it would do.

And i was just sorta thinking to myself well if a turbo etc gives you power and all it is doing is forcing more air into the motor, i thought maybe that might act as the same thing just on a lighter scale haha just a curious question thats all

What would be your opinion in it?

[writeoff]

what if the outlet of the tank was close to the plenum ?

As far as my understanding goes that is where the turbo puts it in.

But even after working this all out you will need some sort of blow off valve so you don't apply to much pressure when the motor isn't ready, ie no throttle and gear changes.

Also as far as I know NOS not only freezes incoming air but also adds more oxygen and compressed air by the time it gets to the front it won't be nearly cold enough to make a difference.

Not going to say I know everything but dad and I were discussing this earlier today (hahah before this was posted, weird as :P) and this is the result of what we came up with... Happy to be corrected as I haven't got much forced induction experience.

My opinion would be it will noticeable, slightly but defs not worth the work and price tag. Proof of concept would be so cool though hahaha

[DmanVT]

haha i know :P i have airbag suspension and so i already have a tank etc :P haha would just need air lines and 1 solenoid :P haha but yer from theory it would work, i think maybe? :S haha but maybe in practice it wouldn't, i think it would be interesting to see though :P

[writeoff]

With the correct dollar figure anything can work ahaha

In theory it only needs that much till you start considering different aspects more stuff will appear. Another thing that would be as cool as this is an electric supercharger
And most likely the limiting factor is the law, engineering this wouldn't be easy I would say. Plus NOS isn't strictly legal in a road car.

[DmanVT]

haha yes i know all that :P haha and yer iv seen someone by a 12v air pump for blowing up inflatable beds etc and they used that as a supercharger and got a huge power gain :S haha

but yer i wouldn't do it i dnt think it would just be interesting to find out if it worked

[writeoff]

The amount of air being moved by a bed pump shouldn't work... I was talking more of a electric large brushless motor rotating the pulley of the blower, that would be sick

[DmanVT]

ah i see what you mean now :P haha well yer i don't see the bed pimp working but i saw a vid of it :P unless it was no ordinary bed pump haha :P

[oscar03]

1 thing compressing air makes it hotter not colder which is the principal behind a diesel if you put your thumb over the end of a bike pump and pump away it will get hot. nos is not flammable per-say its an oxidising agent so its kind of like a turbo in a bottle. very simplified explanation i know. so the effect would be like shitty nos but with the same set up cost to make it work properly so you may as well go the N20 route but its something i thought about once when i was younger so i looked into it as well

[DmanVT]

oh haha i see oh yer its hot isnt it and then when its released the tank gets really cold? is that right? :S haha and yer wasn't going to do any of it was just curious But thankyou

[writeoff]

Compressing air creates heat but the uncompressing of it makes it cold. You could always run it through an intercooler too.

[DmanVT]

haha hypothetically :P haha being on my p's already makes me a cop magnet without having homemade forced induction systems :P haha

[writeoff]

All hyperthetical of course :P homemade and induction system in the same sentence sounds like big boom to me

Btw I know what you mean about the p being cop bait >.> side effect of having a commodore...

[DAKSTER]

I cant see how a bed pump would have any effect at all, its a volume pump not a pressure pump. To get the effect of a charger you need to create pressure. A bed pump will provide 1 Bar, no more. Its just a transport mechanism.

I am no turbo expert but it seems to me...

Regulated compressed air injected into the right place might have some effect, provided you got the pressure right. It would have to actually pressurise though, or you would lose air, not gain it, and since you couldnt do that whilst still keeping an air intake your car would be turboed until the tank ran out of pressure, and run for not much longer than that, when the tank ran out of air and the engine starved.

To keep the system pressurised, the tank would have to be the only source of air. That gives you a total running time of a few seconds, and a 'turbo' period of even less.. a couple hundred litres of air would only last that long.

The above is probably a bunch of BS, I dont know, its just my guess based on my very limited understanding of turbos..

[DmanVT]

i absolutely agree mate and with the bed pump thing i dunno how it was working or whatever but it was creating 14 psi somehow, maybe it was the motor off the bedpump connected to a compressor or something? :S i dunno haha anyway

and yer i understand that now :P

So if the air wasn't being pressurized into the intake then there wouldnt be a turbo effect, but as the air comes out it would be cooler or if you had some sort of intercooler then it would be, so then would it be like a momentary nice cold air intake? haha

[DAKSTER]

Possibly? Given that a CAI only potentially provides a few extra kw anyway you would have to say its a complicated way of achieving bugger all in that respect.

It would be interesting to find out. One thing with compressed air though.. I suspect the cold is caused by condensation, hence the need for water traps on compressors? Again, just a guess. If so, thats probably not a good thing for your purposes.

I've asked a similar question before, but never managed to get an answer..

I inject cold? LPG into my system, does that mean a CAI is redundant because I am adding much colder fuel anyway into the mix?

[DmanVT]

haha yer that is true never thought about that :S, but what about turbo or S/C? they compress air up to 20 psi? :S does that mean they too have condensation deposits running into the intake? :S

Wow so many questions haha but i think one day i'll put this idea to work up at out farm where i can do it on the old carby motor :P

[DAKSTER]

Condensation isnt a problem with chargers because they arent using decompressing air.. they are just sucking air in from outside and compressing it, you arent getting that cold gas bottle decompression effect.

A turbo or supercharger is like a supersucking vacuum cleaner. Its sucking in the outside air faster than it can be used inside the engine, compressing it until it reaches the desired pressure level and then vents through a wastegate when pressure exceeds requirements.

The compressed air is not sucking any external air, thats the big problem. A supercharger or turbocharger are compressors, they suck in the air from outside and compress it inside. They have an unlimited supply of air, a cylinder doesnt.

[writeoff]

Turbo works by exhuast gases being pumped through the centre turbine pumping pressurized air towards the engine/intercooler. It only comes into play at certain rpm hence where turbo lag is from, the bigger the turbine the longer the time to spool. So the pressurized thing isn't an issue since it isn't always there for a turbo either, although it will e dictated by a switch rather than rpm. Also the exhaust gases are hot like 1600 degrees so pressurized hot air still adds some horsies.

Dad used to run 36 pound in his twin turbo CX7 which is a fair bit, 14.7 pounds (1 bar) is still resonable but for a 12v bed pump, extremely unlikely.

[DmanVT]

ahh i see thank you for that, umm so if you sat at lights and reved your engine lightly with a turbo or S/C and it pressurized, when you went to take off, would you all of a sudden have all this unwanted power and spin out? and if so is there something that is supposed to stop this from happening? sorry for all the questions im curious and you only learn from asking right?