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Wobbles after wheel swap
Hey guys,
I have just put some VZ interceptor rims onto a VR Ute and have got some horrible wheel wobble. I have not had the wheels balanced but I think it is worse than a wonky wheel balance.
The Ute has also just had new suspension and springs as well as a wheel alignment a week ago (prior to fitting interceptors).
The interceptors have around 80% rear and around 40% fronts with some slight camber wear to the inside of the tyres. I only took it a couple hundred metres up the road and the wobble would be shifting the steering wheel and inch or two either way at 20km/h.
Wheel balance issue or bigger problems? I did a bit of research prior and was under the understanding that the VZ rims would fit the VR ok but it was pretty damn tight when we installed them.
Any info appreciated
Moderator Puppeh
Balance first, if the problem persists come back. You may even have a buckled rim.
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Will get onto it, thanks. Was hoping someone would come out and say that the VZ Tunner wheels dont fit the VR as that would of been much easier!Originally Posted by Troy711
My 2nd hand 'new' wheels i picked up wobbled like shit when i first got them, they needed a balance and the guys put the rims on the wrong way = directional tyres spinning wrong way..
Made it turn all over the joint.
Mucca Mad Boys
try swapping the front two to the back and vise versa, i had a problem like you and it turned out to be the tires, they had good tread and a quality brand tire, just to soft. so yeah try swapping them and maybe a balance
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I was wondering about the directional part. I had a good look at the tyres and it had no markings with a direction it. I also had a good look at the tread and it didn't have anything major towards a certain direction. Anyone else here have load rated Bridgeston Duravis'? Am I correct in presuming that direction doesn't matter unless it is marked or am I way off?
Will look into that also, I put the ones with the most meat left on them onto the rear.
Yeah if they're not marked they're fine, mind you if it is marked and not sure what to look for for directional sometimes it can hide from you lol. I'm gunna say it's either, wheel balance, tyres, tyre pressure or directions..
Work case senario you got a buckled rim, but they will find that out when they try balance them.
Donating Member
Sorry... but why more tread on the rear?
Definitely get a balance before going any further. Just ask them to look out for a buckle.
Agreed?....
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I figured that the rear tyres will wear out quicker so I used the better tread. I would have no tread left real quick if I used the lesser tread tyres on the rear. Much like rotating your tyres to get more life out of the set.
Bit on an update, I have narrowed down the issue to one of the wheels. The front right doesn't sit on the wheel hub quite right. The wheel centre slots over the hub thingo but the gap around the area the hub joins the rim is different. The centre of the wheel has about a 2mm gap at the bottom and the top has 3 to 4mm gap. Nothing is in the way stopping it from sitting flush that I can see and I cannot figure it out. This makes the wheel sit wonky and it wobbles badly when moving.
The brakes / callipers etc have around 2mm clearance from the sides of the wheel, is this too close?
quote: "... The front right doesn't sit on the wheel hub quite right. The wheel centre slots over the hub thingo but the gap around the area the hub joins the rim is different. The centre of the wheel has about a 2mm gap at the bottom and the top has 3 to 4mm gap. Nothing is in the way stopping it from sitting flush that I can see and I cannot figure it out. This makes the wheel sit wonky and it wobbles badly when moving."
- wheels are "hubcentric", and they need to be a close fit to the hubs. The weight of the car is borne on the hubs. The wheel studs and wheel nuts only resist lateral forces. If the centre-bore of your wheel is too big for the hub, then you've got the wrong wheel. VZ wheels ought to fit a VR hub. Ute wheels are rated for higher loads than sedans, etc. But they have the same hubs, etc. At a guess, someone has mixed your wheels with another manufacturer's (Ford, Toyota) at some point. It happens. Get a ruler, and compare the suspect wheel to ones that fit. If it's different, you replace it.
Donating Member
Not so, I've swapped non directional tyres around and ran them in the opposite direction they were used to and 10mins on the freeway, i peeled the tread off of one.
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Bit of an update - I put the old tyre back on and I still have the same issue. Is it possible that the ring around the hub that looks like black rubber may be causing this? It is the rubber that the under side of the rim sits up against. On this hub it looks like the rubber has some wear marks to it.
Sorry if that makes no sense, I can get pictures as that may be a lot easier
Donating Member
Just thought i could bump it up the list for you atleast. I may be wrong but i think the wear marks would be because of the wheel not the other way around. Has the hub got any free play on it that you can feel while the wheel is off. May be a really stupid question but would a wheel bearing cause this?
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Everything feels pretty secure to me although I do get some movement when moving the studs (part that the wheel nuts bolt to). They seem to have a little bit of play where it slots throug the housing housing thing (no idea of name sorry). I am unsure if the smaller holes should have a little allen key type bolt in them to hold something snug.
I really have got no idea. I have just got new shocks and struts put in also but that doesn't appear to have done anything negative. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe I didn't tighten the wheel enough resulting in it not sitting on the hub properly and bending the wheel studs. The interceptor hubcaps are a pain as they impede the view of the hub when you fit them, that may of stuffed me up! They look straight enough but I may have a closer look in the daylight.
Thanks for the bump mate, have been researching this for ages!
Edit: I would also like to know about the wheel bearing. I have no idea about wheel assembly so this is all a learning curve for me!
Donating Member
I know its now what you want to hear, But i would be going to a mechanic, Im as lost as you and fairly new so i cant help alot and no one else seems to be commenting. Go see a mechanic and just ask them to check the bearing. (would be great if you had a half decent mechanic).
From what i believe, (i may well get flamed) but i think the smaller holes are to help locate the hand brake shoe when fitting. i may be completely wrong.
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I would be heading straight to the mechanics but am bit concerned about driving it. Am leaning towards bent studs or something at this stage so will research that a bit further. If no results in a couple days research I will be calling a mobile mechanic. Appreciate the help mate, will let you know how we go!
EDIT - Does anyone know the name of the rubber thingo on the hub. Is it standard or is it an aftermarket rim spacer or something? I will be spewing if that is causing my issues.
Donating Member
Pretty sure its standard to stop shit getting into the bearing and eating it away.
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The following looks like interesting info and I thought I would post it here for people using the search function in future. Haven't read it all yet but it may help with other's issues as well as mine.
Maintain Your Balance
A simple wheel balance will cure most vibrations. But if that doesn't cure the problem--or if it cropped up suddenly within a reasonable time after a wheel balance--your problems may go deeper.
Begin by cranking the wheels over to the steering stop and looking at the inside of the rim. It's customary to split the amount of the balance weights between the inside and outside of the rim. If a weight (even an old one) has come off, that could be the problem. The weight should leave a clear outline, so you'll know exactly how much is missing. If the balance weight was added recently, you can take it back to the shop for a replacement.
Also inspect the rim--inside and outside--for any damage. Look for packed mud on the inside of the wheel. Also look at the tires--if you see any bulges or uneven wear of the tires, consider them in the "probable cause" category.
Nothing obvious? Take the car for a test drive. When the vibration occurs, is it while you're accelerating through a bend? That means it's both torque and speed sensitive. When you pull back to your garage, inspect the axle shafts, looking for damage to the boots. Constant velocity joints can wear out. But if the boots are intact, the clamps are holding them at each end, and there's been no loss of lubricant and no intrusion of road film, then they're probably in good condition.
If the vibration is not related to torque, shift into Neutral and let the vehicle coast at the problem speed. Still have the vibration? It's speed sensitive pure and simple. This could be the source of your troubles, even if the wheels are balanced and the tires are good. It's not a powertrain or driveline issue.
Keeping Your Bearings
Jack up the front wheels by the control arms, so they're off the ground, and support them with safety stands. Grasp each wheel, holding it first at the sides, then at the top and bottom. See if you can rock the wheel in and out and if you can feel any looseness, which indicates a loose wheel or worn wheel hub bearings. To replace wheel bearings on front-drive cars, you've got to remove the wheel hub. This job requires a slide-hammer puller, a tool typically available from the rental Peg-Board of many auto parts stores, and a torque wrench capable of the high torque usually required for the retaining nut (often well over 200 ft.-lb.). Front-drive wheel bearings (and the front bearings on many rear-drive cars) are well-sealed and often are life-of-the-car without lubrication. However, if you've been on a lot of secondary roads, or glanced off a curb hard enough to bend a rim, they could be worn or damaged.
If you have a rear-drive car it probably has adjustable front wheel bearings, and finding a lot of free play in these is not surprising. To adjust, remove the cotter pin, tighten the wheel bearing nut to about 20 ft.-lb. to seat the bearings, and back off so they're just free but have so little play that you really can't feel it. Then line up the slot in the spindle with the nut and insert a new cotter pin.
Steering Your Way
You may not feel free play in a front wheel (front- or rear-drive), but try rocking it in and out with a bit more effort, but not enough to move the steering linkage. That could demonstrate free play from wear in the tie-rod ends or ball joints. If you're not sure where the free play is, pry up on the bottom of the tire and watch the ball joint to see if it has free play1/4 in. is a lot.
To check a tie-rod end joint for looseness, try to flex it by hand. A good tie-rod end should feel snug, but not immobile or stiff.
On rack-and-pinion steering, it's a good idea to check the tie rods' inner sockets. They're covered by the steering rack boots, but you can squeeze the boots to hold the inner joint. Jack up the front end to take the weight off the front wheels. Have a friend slowly turn the steering wheel a partial turn to each side, while you feel for looseness.
Look Out For Runout
Just because you can't feel a lot of free play or "wobble" in a wheel doesn't mean there isn't enough to cause vibration. It doesn't take a lot to be responsible for objectionable vibration at speeds of 60 to 70 mph and aboveany deviation from a truly circular spin is called runout. It can be vertical (up-down) or horizontal (in-out).
The only practical way to check for runoutfront or rearis with a dial indicator, another tool you can rent at many parts stores. There are several different checks to make to pinpoint the source of the runout.
Mount the indicator on something heavy that won't move, such as an anchor plate or wheel hub/knuckle. Position the plunger for the specific runout check. Example: For a radial runout test, rest it against a good tire tread groove. Slowly turn the tire and measure the amount of runout, ignoring jumps in the plunger that result from the shape of the tread or minor imperfections in it. If there are factory specifications for runout, use those.
If you don't have specs, see if the runout is about .050 to .060 in.this measurement is considered rule of thumb. The tire almost surely isn't the issue, although there is precision equipment that can check a tire for heavy spots. We knowyou don't have it and can't rent it. Most professionals don't have it either, which tells you how common it is.
To isolate the source of the runout, check it at the wheel with the plunger on an underside horizontal surface. Ignore minor imperfections in the wheel finish (paint, weld, tiny dings) that cause the plunger to jump instantaneously. If the runout is over .045 in., the wheel should be replaced.
If radial runout isn't bad, check lateral runout with the plunger against the sidewall, even if the in-out rocking didn't show anything. Obviously, ignore any plunger movement from raised lettering, etc. If the runout is over .045 in., it's too much. Here again, isolate the runout by checking at the wheel with the plunger against a vertical surface. The rule-of-thumb specs are the same as for radial runout.
When the runout at the wheel is excessive, a new wheel normally is the answer, but not always. Remove the wheel and check runout on the wheel hub. Making a lateral runout check is an obvious procedure because there's a hub face against which you can rest the plunger.
For a radial check, it may be more difficult if the top surface of the hub isn't reasonably smooth because you have to use the threaded edges of the studs, and, typically, there are only four or five of those studs. So it does take some careful measuring to see if there's a significant amount. You have to look for the peak reading at each stud to be sure you're measuring at the outermost point. Unless almost all the radial runout is in the bolt circle, and that amount is at least .030 in., go for a new wheel. Replacing the hub and bearing on a front-drive is not a quick and easy job.
It can take a couple of hours to check out the possible causes of high-speed vibration, and you may be tempted to take the car in for wheel alignment to see if that helps before you spend time on all these other things. Sorry. Unless there's some evidence of wheel misalignment (such as irregular tire wear), a wheel alignment is not going to help at all. In fact, until you first isolate and correct the cause of the vibration, alignment would be a waste of time and money.
Remove the cotter pin to retorque a loose front wheel bearing on a rear-drive car.
Total radial runout at the tire tread should be no more than .050 to .060 in.
If radial or lateral runout is high, check both runouts at the hub to rule out a bent rim.
MORE INFORMATION:
TIRE & WHEEL MARKINGS:
There are marks that the tire and wheel manufacturers use so as to align the "high" and "low" spot of the wheel/tire combo. (BTW, any good shop will know this).
The valve stem hole is drilled in the geometrically "low" spot of the rim (ie the smallest diameter, within manufacturing tolerances) by the wheel manufacturer. The tire manufacturer, in turn, marks on the wheel the radically stiffest part of the tire (which is effectively the "highest" spot) with a color spot or other label. Aligning these two, the spot and the valve stem hole, is called Match Mounting which is intended to give the smoothest drive possible.
WHEEL MOUNTING:
Wheels can be aligned with the hub in two ways: either thru their lug nuts or via the hub-centric or center pilot of the wheel. Yes, that center hole in the back of a wheel is what aligns the center of the wheel to the center of the hub.
VIBRATIONS WHILE DRIVING:
As a rule of thumb: vibrations felt under 40mph are related to runout. Most vibrations of this nature are caused after hitting bid/deep/large etc. objects; this is definitely cause and effect in action. If a vibration is felt at over 40mph it is usually related to balance.
OTHER TIPS:
Still having vibrations? Try having your free runout, both in the lateral and radial sense measured. Both the tire and the rim should be measured for lateral and radial runout. The shop manual calls for 0.080 in., but a better rule is not to exceed 0.060in for the lateral and radial runout. If your runout exceeds this number, you will have perceptible vibrations. Note that runout is first measured on the car, and if it exceeds it, then the wheel should be measured off the car to isolate the problem. Yes, the bearings in the hub could also have damaged by that last pothole and causing vibrations too. It also can be that the mounting surface of the hub has been damaged or is defective, or that the stud circle of the wheel may not be centered on the hub. and finally, check your steering rack mounts too - worn/loose mounts can add vibration to your steering wheel.
GETTING A GOOD WHEEL/TIRE BALANCING JOB DONE:
A good dynamic balancer should be checked so that it zero's itself before balancing the tire and after the weights are on the tire while the tire is on the machine.
If there is still a vibration, an on-car balance of the wheel should be done, which will balance all rotating part on that corner. This is usually used for fine tuning a dynamic balance, and not everyone has the equipment to do it. Note that if you rotate the tire after an on-car balance, it will have to be redone.
Other rules of thumb are that if it takes more than three ounces to balance a tire, you will be better off getting a different tire or wheel.
If a recent vibration is felt, check to see that a weight has not been lost when hitting a pothole.
NEED FOR ACCURACY:
Most dynamic wheel balancers that shops use are accurate to 0.25 oz. (or about what a quarter weights) ..this would generate a force of about half a pound at 65mph for a 24inch diameter tire. This accuracy used to be enough and the forces generated were not notices in the days of rear wheel drive cars with long arm suspensions and parallelogram power-assisted steering. But on modern cars, it would be totally unacceptable. There is a new “European” accuracy standard which calls for an accuracy rate of plus or minus one gram (that's 0.035 oz.!).
Some of the newest balancers can come close to this standard with an accuracy of 0.05 oz. - which is five times better than the balancer accurate to 0.025 oz.
Some of these new balancers also allow for special modes so that the balance can be calculated with the weights on the inside; "patch balance" modes which allows for a weight "patch" to be mounted inside the tire when a lot of weight is needed to balance the tire (note that this is very specialized and hard to find machine); match mounting of the wheel and tire is supported on some machines; others allow for "split weight" modes so that two smaller weights can be used or when construction impeded mounting of a weight (note that this increases accuracy by eliminating the rounding error that sometimes occurs when a single large weight is used). Even the mounting of the wheel to the machine can be specialized with horizontal mounts, hydraulic collets, etc.
OTHER THINGS TO CHECK:
Things that do not affect the dynamic balance of the wheels are: tire alignment, warped rotors (they will make the pedal pulse when brakes are applied and simultaneously make the steering wheel vibrate back and forth for really bad ones - otherwise they do not affect the dynamic balance of the axle) Worn out ball joints, shocks, bushings and tie rods can introduce vibrations that will feel like an out of balance condition.
PROPERLY TORQUING DOWN THE WHEELS:
Finally for those warping your rotors, skip the impact wrench and try mounting your wheels with a torque wrench using 70-80 ft-lbs of torque. Even and equal torque on all lug nuts will prevent warping of rotors 9with a possible exception being cross drilled rotors).
F O R U M W A R R I O R
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Not to my knowledge, only the pictured rubber thing (Bearing seal - "Pickle'" helped me with that one)
Donating Member
Mate, Listen to ricey. Very helpful. I cant help much, i only know what i know by ####ing my own car :P. Good luck with it and please let me know how you get on.
Edit: looking at that picture, i dont believe the studs are bent. If they were (correct me if im wrong) but the wheel would have free play that you would be able to feel when the car is jacked up (as the nuts wouldn't tighten fully). Thats just my theory i may be wrong.
If thats a pic of a VR hub with that rubber spacer thing on the hub centre, then I dont think that rubber spacer is supposed to even be there. Ive never seen that rubber thing on the hubs of any other VR or VS, Maybe it was used when fitting certain types of aftermarket wheels, I dont know. Theres certainly no mention of it, and its not shown in any of the pics in the VR or VS workshop manuals, Id just remove it and see how the wheels fit then. Ive also got 3 VR's sitting in my yard I use for spares,and none of them have it either.
custom audio installer
The rubber ring that sits on the hub is after market. They come with new wheels as it makes sure when you put the wheel on that it is on square and home on the hub. Make sure that you are centering the wheel on the hub and when you tighten it up it bolts up flush with the face of the hub. The wheel can be bolted up and feel and look tight but infact it is not square on the hub. What will happen is the wheel will then center its self after some driving then it will begin to shake and if not retightened it will shear all of the wheel nuts clean off. I would get the tyre shop to chuck it on the balancer nand check for warped rim and balance. Also it could be the tyre delaminating. When the tyre effectivly starts to unstich itself and forms a lump on the tread but is some times hard to see. this will cause a massive shake. I have seen this happen to even near new tyres and is some times hard to see. spin the wheel and feel the tyre tread for any bumps. Get a mechanic to check the wheel bearing its easy and a ten second job but best to get a profesional opinon on it. Becareful not to over tighten the wheel nuts to. New falcons and Commies have reaaly soft studs and are easy to stretch.85ft pounds i use. Good luck!!!
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