Heel-Toe vs Rev Matching On Downshift

[the_trademarc]

Who does what??

I personally struggle with the Heel-Toe, maybe cuz I have big feet or just unco, but I rev match on downshift, which I feel I've got down pat....

Here's the thing though, is either one worse than the other for the clutch and/or engine??

[bj42turbo]

your doing this on a race track or day to day driving??

I too have tried heal toe but I too cant get the hang of it


Dazz

[the_trademarc]

Day-to-day.

Came up in conversation last night when my mate was heel-toeing to a stop at a set of lights in his Accord, just seemed strange to me.
He reckoned it was better for his engine, I couldn't see how though....

[Jesterarts]

I don't heel-toe but I do tap the throttle on down shifts so the speed and engine rpm match etc. But that's usually because I only use the engine to slow the car if I have lots of space and don't really need to get on the brake. Otherwise I will just keep it in gear until the rom it quick low and the shift down doesn't cause a massive RPM increase. EG go through the gears 1 by 1 rather than say dropping from 4th straight 2 second.

From what I understand, in normal driving it doesn't make too much difference. Unless you throw it into say 2nd @ 80kmph then the rpm has dropped.

If you downshift like a spazz it causes unnecessary load on the whole driveline plus also the timing chains from what I understand.

[azkwazere]

yeah with size 13-14ish feet i struggle to get anywhere close to a decent heel and toe action going... ive gotten the really good and 50/50 (half your foot on the break and the right half on the acc). The pedal gap on the coomies is good in that you can get away with with it...

Though, on the street its completly pointless.. you really shouldnt be accelerating or decelerating rapidly enough to worry about it (emergencies excluded)

aZk.

[VT-565]

Pedal position is shit for one.
Two, I hear a LOT of people trying to rev match, only to fail as they don't release the clutch until the engine has slowed back to near idle speeds anyway.

Brake pads are a lot cheaper and easier to replace.

[wraith]

It's a commodore not a race car.....

[MikeCuzzy]

[Dr HaxZaw]

If i'm double downshifting to accelerate then as i feed the clutch in im already on the accelerator so the engine revs match... if i'm slowing down i just go down through the gears or wait till the rpm hits about 1100 before shifting down

[Reaper]

The reason for heel/toe blips of the throttle slowing down started with old manual gearboxes that rarely had synchro's and thus, unless the engine revs matched the gearbox revs it would grind the gears. When syncromesh gearboxes were introduced it became largely redundant although if you were racing, matching the revs on the downshift will prolong syncro life. For normal day to day driving it is not necessary but under high rev/heavy braking applications on a track day it will save your gearbox. That said - mess it up and you are likely to do more wear.

Reaper

[Darren_L]

Heel and toe is only really needed if you are downshifting and braking simultaneously at speed. I've managed to do it on the racetrack, but it is a bit awkward. Unlike V8 Supercar pedals, street cars usually aren't setup for it. My throttle pedal sits higher than my brake pedal which results in fairly interesting angles on my leg when I heel & toe.

But I only bother on track days, simply so the back wheels don't lock up on downshifts. And I find it a lot easier on the track, because I'm normally standing on the brakes fairly hard as I'm downshifting - so I can keep the toes on the brake pedal fairly hard while I tap the heel on the throttle.

I originally practiced it a bit on the street with not a lot of success. Most braking on the street is light to moderate, so when you dig your heel into the throttle the toes end up jamming the brakes on hard at the same time. End result is you usually end up slamming the brakes on too hard! But as soon as I hit the track, I found it a lot easier for reasons already mentioned.

But as said no need on the street, the only reason it's done on the racetrack is to stop the rear wheels from locking up on downshifts - which shouldn't be an issue on the street if you are driving responsibly

[Darren_L]

The reason for heel/toe blips of the throttle slowing down started with old manual gearboxes that rarely had synchro's and thus, unless the engine revs matched the gearbox revs it would grind the gears. When syncromesh gearboxes were introduced it became largely redundant although if you were racing, matching the revs on the downshift will prolong syncro life. For normal day to day driving it is not necessary but under high rev/heavy braking applications on a track day it will save your gearbox. That said - mess it up and you are likely to do more wear.

Reaper

non-synchro boxes required 'double clutching', which is a different thing again. Still got to do it on some of the big truck road ranger boxes.
The process of double clutching is - clutch in, shift into neutral, release clutch & rev, clutch back in and shift into gear.

heel & toe on the other hand is a practice used on race cars like V8 Supercars to reduce the rear wheels from locking up (due to engine compression) when downshifting at speed.

[ozdash]

.
The process of double clutching is - clutch in, shift into neutral, release clutch & rev, clutch back in and shift into gear.

thats only for down shifting a road ranger, no rev on up shift.

[Darren_L]

thats only for down shifting a road ranger, no rev on up shift.

yes I realise that

[jamesmp]

Heel-Toe is a bit of a challenge in a Commo because the throttle and brake aren't level and if the brake pedal is depressed until they are level, the braking intensity is too much.

Rev matching is much easier - know where your clutch grips and give the throttle a squirt just before that point.

[Bravotwozero]

thats only for down shifting a road ranger, no rev on up shift.

You still double clutch on the up change with a crash box though.

[ozdash]

You still double clutch on the up change with a crash box though.

Never said you didnt, just stated no rev on upshift.....

[Bravotwozero]

Never said you didnt, just stated no rev on upshift.....

My post was more for the benefit of those who didn't know.

[lein]

I tend to not bother with the clutch when driving roadrangers, just have to get the rev matching right.

Big fan of double-clutching & heel-toeing in my Commodore though, old habit from driving cars with very ordinary gearboxes. That and it's fun.

[Kieran263]

When I'm just cruising around for fun I'll double clutch, purely because I feel like I'm more involved.
Plus, if Vin Diesel says it's what I should be doing, I'll be doing it.

[H4Z4RD]

The last time I tried the heel toe thing my left leg cramped up and jammed on the brake. Wasn't fun for my passenger...

[jakstas]

Realize commodore can't corner.
Stick to straight line racing.
Buy auto and big stall.
Ignore heel/toe philosophy.
???
Profit.

[wraith]

The last time I tried heel toing I realised wait hang on I'm driving what is essentially a family car not designed for this. Don't need to do it with gearboxes with synchros.

[ozdash]

I tend to not bother with the clutch when driving roadrangers, just have to get the rev matching right.

Big fan of double-clutching & heel-toeing in my Commodore though, old habit from driving cars with very ordinary gearboxes. That and it's fun.

yeah starting and stopping is all you really need the clutch for,biggest problem I find is people double clutching is the press the clutch to the floor and distroy the clutch brake you only need a few inches of travel to match engine and road speed

[the_trademarc]

Yeah from my experience, heel-toeing a Commodore/HSV is not possible because the brake pedal sits slightly higher than the throttle.

Like I said, I never considered that a genuine option to slow down, I've always rev-matched, but I dunno, my mate was doing ok with it so I was like meh, I'll go with it.