Ask The Copper

[bradcad]

[I]

You mentioned earlier that it is illegal for motorbikes to lane split. Why then does every driver here continue to get shafted by some of the motorcycle riders out there? We all see it (at least once a day myself-in the city) and often in full view and even past queued police vehicles!

More importantly, in heavy traffic how is it even possible for you to catch up to a lane splitting rider and book him? In long enough queues you've got no chance... I always assumed that I would, despite hypothetically being a serving police officer; simply not bother enforcing this part of the law due to the difficulty involved. Does Goulbourn teach otherwise?

How exactly are you getting shafted by lanesplitting motorcyclists?

A uk study showed lanesplitting to be one of the best, 'free' ways to greatly reduce peak traffic congestion and travel time. Free because it does not cost a cent, whereas building additional roads and tunnels costs millions, and reclaims houses and parkland.

Think of it this way.

If 100 motorcyclists lanesplit through one long, heavy road in one morning, in the same direction. That is 100 less vehicles that has to stop in line behind a set of lights. That means if those lights let say 50 cars through. The lights might change every 3 minutes? How many lights might you go through like this- I go through 2 or 3 bad ones, and a few not quite as bad.

Those 100 motorcycles have just saved you 12 minutes ON TWO INTRESECTIONS.

Those 100 motorcycles just slashed the amount of noxious gasses produced if those people were in 100 cars, waiting for an extra 12 minutes. Not to mention the gases produced by a thousand cars waiting for an additional 12 minutes.

Those 100 morotcycles have just saved quite a few litres of fuel- in comparison I spend $40 on the bike, compared to $100-$110. THat is under half. If every bike saves $60 to $80 fuel, average $70 each @1.30 per litre, a touch under 54 litres each. Times 100 that's 5384 litres in one week alone. Now what are they telling us about fuel prices rising? Supply and demand?

Now, take that 5384 litres and multiply that by the number of heavy peak hour roads in each capital city. Say there's 5 major roads. That's nearly 27,000 litres of fuel each week. What happens when the fuel companies sell less fuel? Prices are reduced because crude oil is not being fought over by so many contenders. Less bidders, lower prices.

These are arbitrary numbers, based on limited experience. One thing I can say is they are reasonably accurate on the route I take to work, and the fuel I am saving every week. So, you start to see how motorcycles lanesplitting is saving YOU time and money. Instead of getting shafted by them, you are benefitting from their actions. Dont believe me? have a look at japan, and other countries where scooters have the right of way, and good public transport systems.

Next lanesplitting motorcyclist you see- shake his hand, and move out of the way. Then be part of the solution- consider a scooter or bike, but only if you are willing to be a confident, alert and overall careful rider.

[helly]

Yeah, saves everyone heaps of time until one gets a bit ****y and clips the car he's trying to illegally overtake coming off the bike and jamming himself under front wheels of the next car in the queue...

Then thank him for keeping 1000 vehicle's in a stand still in Sydney peak hour. Add in the flow on effect which is massive, and yeah everyone is really stoked that the bikes get where they wanna go quicker. I bet that articale was in a car enthusiast's mag (yeah right)...

You can justify it any way you like but its still extremely dangerous.

It seems that more and more these days that minorities try to justfiy everything on a time saving basis, like they are doing some civic duty or something. Try to think in things in terms of safety and you might understand why rules are there.

Yeah sure you can go faster if you want, but its at a cost. Driving a vehicle on the roads is dangerous, no matter what speed you do. But by adding more speed you add more risk and if you do have a collision you add more force to the impact (= more damage, injury and loss of life).

We have to set the limits somewhere. Most people, and I say that being out on the roads every day, with the radar, doing my job (like it or hate it), do the speed limit, or under. Every day I see MORE people doing the right thing than the wrong thing. Sure there's heaps that speed, but many more can easily find it in themselves to obey the law.

Speeders are actually a MINORITY, good luck changing the law, fellas...

[helly]

I know there are many questions here Helly and crew, thanks for taking the time for us. I for one feel much more easygoing about police thanks to you all.

You mentioned earlier that it is illegal for motorbikes to lane split. Why then does every driver here continue to get shafted by some of the motorcycle riders out there? We all see it (at least once a day myself-in the city) and often in full view and even past queued police vehicles!

More importantly, in heavy traffic how is it even possible for you to catch up to a lane splitting rider and book him? In long enough queues you've got no chance... I always assumed that I would, despite hypothetically being a serving police officer; simply not bother enforcing this part of the law due to the difficulty involved. Does Goulbourn teach otherwise?

What you have said above is the exact reason it is still happening. I used to actaully have to get out of the patrol car, when I saw them coming up the queue behind me and get out and physically stop them. Otherwise you just say bye bye, and there are off with no chance of catching them.

It is difficult and who knows what Gouburn teach these days. We have discretion, but some police use this to camoflage laziness. Its up to each officer to enforce things the way they want, Ipersonally will stop them if I can with minimal risk, but sometimes it just isnt worth it.

[bradcad]

dangerous? Really? How about 2 coppers racing past me on my bike at 60 k's over the limit? How do I know their speed? because I followed them for 3 k's. Were they on their way to an urgent job? no. Because every set of lights they were pulling up beside each other and laughing. How is it dangerous when no cars are moving? How exactly?

I'm not trying to justify it, rather say to someone that maybe when they say they are adversely affected by someone else's actions they havent thought the whole thing through. I'm just dissapointed that some people find it hard to think of the bigger picture. And I dont think I'm doing a community service, however I can see the potential effects.

And so what, someone doesnt have to wait in line. If i dont make anyone elses wait longer, who cares? No wait, dont tell me. Car drivers dont change into lanes that are moving quicker. Car drivers dont run yellow lights. Car drivers dont use transit lanes when they have less than the required number of people in the car. Car drivers dont tailgate. They dont do any of this so they have every right to be pissed off that someone does what they can to save time within reason.

minorities trying to justify. It would be interesting if every bike rider was pissed off enough- then you would see how much of a minority they are. You must have seen the recent response when these anti lane splitting laws where introduced in other areas...

[bradcad]

It is difficult and who knows what Gouburn teach these days. We have discretion, but some police use this to camoflage laziness. Its up to each officer to enforce things the way they want, Ipersonally will stop them if I can with minimal risk, but sometimes it just isnt worth it.

by the way i applaud your use of discretion, because I understand you have a job to do, as you are enforcing the laws passed by others, yet you recognise danger and the potential for more harm than good.

[Puggle]

BRADCAD

I see your point about saving me time, pollution etc and I agree. However being 'shafted' wasn't about time, it was about motorcycle (*some) riders clearly breaking the law. What annoyed me is the very attitude you seem to have, which is that you are justified in breaking the law, because of a myriad of valid reasons.

Bottom line: None of us are above the law, not car drivers, not motorcylists, and not even police officers. So thankyou for saving me time at intersections -really; but realise that you are still breaking the law by illegally lane-splitting to do it. No matter how many positive reasons any of us may have for breaking the law it doesn't justify illegal activity. I was worried a little by your post-worried that you honestly thought your reasoning was above the law and therefore gave you moral ground to break it.

Only a child tries to convince themselves that they are somehow morally justified in defying authority. Maturity enables us to accept what the law is, and then choose to either obey or disobey; without skewing our perception away from reality-"it's ok to break this law". For goodness sake, obey or disobey the law-that is our choice on the roads but you have to accept that it still is the law. Don't pretend otherwise...please

And it all boils down to exactly that. The reason many drivers are frustrated at motorcyclists splitting lanes illegally: the audacity some motorcyclists display.

audacity–noun, plural -ties. 1. boldness or daring, esp. with confident or arrogant disregard for personal safety, conventional thought, or other restrictions.

[bradcad]

fair enough

I dont need to justify anything for me to break 'the law'. i choose to do it on my own. I am not pretending that is not a black and white issue. I break 'the law', I get caught, I get fined, I will do it again. I just happen to not agree with certain 'laws', and I know there is no platform for discussion or reform. I am particularly dissappointed laws can be passed without true justification, especially when they are not repealed when it is proven it has little to no effect.

what worried me was your attitude of 'he's getting away with it. Why is he allowed to get away with it if i can't.' All I'm saying is that there are bigger issues in the world other than whether someone else breaks 'the law' or not.

I guess I cant help your attitude as much as you cant help mine.

[Julie]

I'm not trying to attack you in anyway bradcad, I just strongly disagree with your attitude. Anyway, what I would like to know is are you breaking the law because of the reasons you stated ie. to cut down traffic for us poor motorists, or is is it simply to benefit yourself by not having to wait in traffic like the rest of us suckers?

[Shounak]

I'm pretty sure splitting lanes when traffic is stopped at a traffic light is legal in Victoria. According to my mate who rides a bike anyway.

I could be wrong, but I have most definitely seen bikers do this whilst cop cars are around.

Could it be a interstate legislation difference?

[james_and_his_vp]

hey everyone, im just curious if say, i saw two cars drag race, could i report their plates to the police and have something done about it? or is proof needed? just curious, regards, james

[bradcad]

I'm not trying to attack you in anyway bradcad, I just strongly disagree with your attitude. Anyway, what I would like to know is are you breaking the law because of the reasons you stated ie. to cut down traffic for us poor motorists, or is is it simply to benefit yourself by not having to wait in traffic like the rest of us suckers?

thats ok everyones everyones entitled to their opinion, you dont have to subscribe to mine.

i do it because it benefits me, and it doesnt harm anyone in the process first and foremost. And yes, it was legal in Vic, not sure if they managed to make it illegal, as they were trying very hard.

That is where a lot of information came out of studies that stated the benefits and negligible dangers.

[pacey]

hey everyone, im just curious if say, i saw two cars drag race, could i report their plates to the police and have something done about it? or is proof needed? just curious, regards, james

If your willing to make a statement and are prepared to give this evidence in court then YES, police will investigate the complaint and deal out the appropriate punishment. Cheers

[Puggle]

Bradcad,

Agree to disagree then. Thankyou for being civil in discussing it, fair argument especially if it is legal! I'll be nicer to motorcyclists in Sydney who lane split then...

[helly]

Bradcad,

Agree to disagree then. Thankyou for being civil in discussing it, fair argument especially if it is legal! I'll be nicer to motorcyclists in Sydney who lane split then...

Its not legal in NSW...

Bradcad, I liked the last comment ....negligable dangers!

I regards to police speeding, sure there are dangers, a times quite high risks I would say. Its just a sign of the times that police have to have exemptions from speeding so that they can do their jobs and get results. If those two cars were speeding and had no real reason then sure they are wankers. The deal is that even if police are breaching road rules, legally (ie with a valid exemption, on the way to a stabbing in progress or something like that) they are still accountable for their actions, and if we hit someone, no matter if they pulled out in front of us or not, failed to give way, then it is deemed that we did not use due care and we can be both internally and publicly prosecuted.

My only point is that the rules are made for all of us, some people have exemptions, and I think everyone can understand why police need to have these. The rules are made for all road users. Just cos you think its safe? Well I'm sorry I don't really care about some study conducted by a motorcycling body/group about lane splitting. You'll have convince this police officer who used to attended about 30 motor vehicle accidents per week with about 10 percent of those involving motor cyclists. In my experiences lane splitting was one of the most common casues found for motor cycle collisions. Threading the needle aint so much fun when the needle moves is it...

It is simply illegal for any motor vehicle to pass another vehicle in the same lane, whether or not the vehicle is moving or stationary, if mobile it is also considered careless driving and travelling at an unsafe distance. Just because there is no section of legislation that says lane splitting is illegal does not make it legal.

I have looked through the Victorian legislation and cannot find anything that indicates that lane-splitting is legal. Why do I know? Because I am a cross border police officer in NSW and VIC, its my job.

Anyhow I accept that you are going to do it anyway, and so will many others
but I can't see the value in trying to defend it here, where so many people disagree with what you are saying.

On a final note, I don't believe that I said that motorcyclists were a minority. I believe that I said that people who break the law are a minority (or at least that's what I was trying to get accross)... But hey I've been wrong before, and I can't be bothered going back through the post to find it, I have a pretty good memory.

Cheers

[bradcad]

Yeah not legal in NSW, was in VIC but i know they were trying to change it..

[JD]

just a quick question:
if you see a copper breaking the law can you pull him over and give him a ticket?

p.s im not trying to be smart i am just curious becuase i see tonnes of cops break the law even when the are just patroling.

[helly]

just a quick question:
if you see a copper breaking the law can you pull him over and give him a ticket?

p.s im not trying to be smart i am just curious becuase i see tonnes of cops break the law even when the are just patroling.

Yeah mate, we can all dream... Simple answer, no!

This has been asked before I think, but here is a bit of an exploration of the issue;

If you wanna try then these are some things you may want to consider...

1. How can you write him a ticket? Do you have a ticket book? Unless you are an authorised officer under the act in which the offence is listed, you can not take legal action of any form except civil. There are laws in NSW that prohibit police from being civily prosecuted by members of the public for anything occurring whilst in the execution of their duties.

2. How do you kow he/she is breaking the law? Maybe he/she has a legal/legislated exemption to the particular thing you you think they are doing illegaly. Police don't drive around with asign on their roof saying, "Don't mind us, we are just looking for a bloke who just robbed the chemist"... Yes we may do a u-turn at a set of lights without indicating and take off at a million miles per hour (oh dear without our lights and sirens on, which by the way are not compulsory to have on when we are breaching road rules). Maybe we just saw him in our rear vision mirror, and don't want to give him the heads up that we are about to sneak up behind him. The public don't know why we are doing what we are doing, and while its happening is usually not the most conveinient time to have a chat about it.

3. You can make a complaint if you like, the matter will get investigated, trust me. I used to work in a very illustrious residential area, and the local liked to complain about us doing our job's, because the lights or sirens or arresting someone in theie street, upset them... Poor things! Oh making a false complaint against police is now a criminal offence too, just for those of you who started giggling and though a few porky pies might be called for...

4. By intervening you may be hindering a police officer, that's a criminal offence, and you would most prbably have to breach some road rules yourself to actually stop us... Just like we do to stop you!

There might be more but that's major issues I can see...

Cheers

[UREZY]

my licence was suspended and its not suspended now but i called vicrds and on the national database it says suspended if i got pulled over for wat ever reason and it still says suspended can i tel them to call qld and verify it because in fact i do have a licence and the national database hasnt fixd the problem yet!?

[Puggle]

Its not legal in NSW...

Ok I won't be nicer to motorcyclists splitting lanes in Sydney... I'll continue to glare and frown ferociously at them as they drive away. I'm sure they feel disgraced and penitent as I do it.

[helly]

Ok I won't be nicer to motorcyclists splitting lanes in Sydney... I'll continue to glare and frown ferociously at them as they drive away. I'm sure they feel disgraced and penitent as I do it.

Ha ha, well there aint much more you can do hey! Its just arrogance, and once in a while they come unstuck for it... Just like most of those who just decide that some particular road rule doesn't apply to them for whatever reason they can whip up...

[helly]

my licence was suspended and its not suspended now but i called vicrds and on the national database it says suspended if i got pulled over for wat ever reason and it still says suspended can i tel them to call qld and verify it because in fact i do have a licence and the national database hasnt fixd the problem yet!?

You can always ask, can't hurt...

Police can contcat their radio rooms and they can usually get access to info interstate wihtout too much trouble, so if the national databas says suspended and we call the vic's police radio room, they should be able to clear it up.

It is something I would be writing a letter about and attempting to get some reply correspondance about. Then you could carry the reply letter with you.

Something on a VIC roads letter head saying that your licence is current is gunna delay the "yeah I heard that one before mate" response you will most likely encounter...

Good luck with it.

[bradcad]

Ha ha, well there aint much more you can do hey! Its just arrogance, and once in a while they come unstuck for it... Just like most of those who just decide that some particular road rule doesn't apply to them for whatever reason they can whip up...

Arrogance hey?

[JD]

thaks helly oh well i can dream

[Puggle]

Arrogance hey?

It's just a stronger word with a very similar meaning to audacity; which I called you (well lane splitters) earlier.

audacity–noun, plural -ties. 1. boldness or daring, esp. with confident or arrogant disregard for personal safety, conventional thought, or other restrictions.

[Shounak]

Hey Helly and Co..

Just cross posting a question I had from another thread..

Can cops in cop cars without lights do anything? There are a few cops that fill up their cop cars at my servo (close by cop shop), but these cop cars don't have undercover lights mounted or anything.

They're older guys filling them up and they're cars like XR6T's, Territories and things, I get the impression that they're reasonably senior ones..

Can they do anything to enforce any traffic laws or anything? Does it make a difference if they're on duty, but don't have lights?

If they can. How does a cop with no lights, sirens or equipment, pull a car over? Drive up beside and wave a badge?

Cheers..