304 injected.....questions

[VL Berlina 5speed]

304 injected motors,

i am wanting to put one in my car in the near future but was unsure to which model would i take one out off, vn or a vs or any models in between,

so my question are,
is there any year 304i i should steer clear of and common faults that one year had which was fixed in the next years model?

what were some changes that were made to each motor over the years to increase the power out put? eg computer, cam(for hsv) or what ever....

is there any major changes in the manual gear boxes over the years? like type/brand and strength of some?

ruff pricing for a 304 and manual trans you would expect to pay, and the year/model its out off.


and one last question with the nose of the vl beening built lower the rb30 is common for getting air blocks in the cooling system when not bleed correct in turn causing the head to crack, would the lower radiator and cooling system cause any simular problems to a 304?

alot of questions i know but i am really for doing this, the turbo vl is to common and im not really wanting to do it, when my head cracked last time it sounded like a v8 and that has caused me to want to do a v8 convesion insted of a turbo, just sounded so tuff and nice and the other facts like torque, no lag etc

[white vn ss]

best 304 to buy would be vr vs. vn vp vq are ok but still were the first few injected 304s so not the best built. vt were the worst 304 built because of all the emission laws that came in. vt 304 is very restricted.

[1991_Vn2nV]

VN
VP
VR
VS S1

^^^All the same 5L, all 165kw @4400rpm and 385NM @3600rpm of torque.

VS S2: 168kw @4400rpm and 395NM @3600rpm

VT S1: 179kw @ 4800rpm and 400NM @3600rpm

After that it went to the Gen III... The VT was not very restricted...

Keep in mind, the VT was not that bigger jump in performance. Most of that extra power between the VT and VS S2 is in fact because of a low restriction DUAL exhaust (rather than single) and also a slight rise in compression. It went from 8:4 CR for the VN to VS to 8:8 for CR for the VT.

So overall, its all a much of a muchness. Just get the best condition efi 5L you can, regardless of model. Focus on low km's and engine condition rather than which model its out of.

[VL Berlina 5speed]

cheers for that dylan,
that was the info i was wanting,

now does anyone know much about the 5spd gearboxes used? did they change from the T5 to the Getrag in the v8 range like with the 6's?

and most of all i am very intressted in knowing about the nose of the vl being lower would it cause problems to the engine like the rb30?

[1991_Vn2nV]

Hmm theres a few VL's goin around with Gen III transplants that havent had any issues I dont think.

One of the installers at JB Hi Fi Modbury has a VL with the 5.7 Gen III, and so does my mates cousin... So I'll check with my mate and see if he had any issues.

As for Transmissions:

VN = Borg Warner T5
VP = Borg Warner T5
VR = Borg Warner T5
VS S1 and S2 = Borg Warner T5
VT = Getrag

There was also a 'Series 3' VS 5L...which was the exact same as the VT 5L...this is only in regards to the Statesman etc... Not the Sedan I think. But that used the Getrag 5 speed as well. So it was only the 179kw 5L that got the Getrag transmission.

[AirStrike]

VN
VP
VR
VS S1

^^^All the same 5L, all 165kw @4400rpm and 385NM @3600rpm of torque.

VS S2: 168kw @4400rpm and 395NM @3600rpm

VT S1: 179kw @ 4800rpm and 400NM @3600rpm

After that it went to the Gen III... The VT was not very restricted...

Keep in mind, the VT was not that bigger jump in performance. Most of that extra power between the VT and VS S2 is in fact because of a low restriction DUAL exhaust (rather than single) and also a slight rise in compression. It went from 8:4 CR for the VN to VS to 8:8 for CR for the VT.

So overall, its all a much of a muchness. Just get the best condition efi 5L you can, regardless of model. Focus on low km's and engine condition rather than which model its out of.

Theres quite a difference in all the blocks. First of all the VR/VS blocks are cast clearnaced from factory to accept the 350 stroker cranks as used in the GTS/Senator 215i's, the VN/VP blocks are not. So if your going a stroker in the future and use a VR/VS block its one less thing that needs machining.
The VT block also made more power due to the fact that it ran a true roller setup, in that it has a roller cam, lifters and rockers (not just roller tipped). Also the sequential injection setup helps not only with power, but also tunabillity and fuel economy.
Setup wise the VN/VP would be the easiest ECU wise in that they never ran an electronic auto and both the auto and manaul memcals are basically the same.
Im currently trying to find a VT short motor (which has been quite difficult) but there are a few crate motors still around (always a few on ebay) that would be perfect for you.
Personally you cant go wrong with the VT block. Clearanced for the stroker crank, roller everything means you can run a much steeper ramp profile on the cam lobes and still retain a lot of streetability compared to a hydraulic.
AirStrike

[AirStrike]

Hmm theres a few VL's goin around with Gen III transplants that havent had any issues I dont think.

One of the installers at JB Hi Fi Modbury has a VL with the 5.7 Gen III, and so does my mates cousin... So I'll check with my mate and see if he had any issues.

As for Transmissions:

VN = Borg Warner T5 Correct
VP = Borg Warner T5 Correct
VR = Borg Warner T5 Correct
VS S1 and S2 = Borg Warner T5 Correct
VS SIII = Getrag (no use mentioning SIII stato as they only came with the auto, but the ute came in a manual, Infusion has one)
VT = Getrag Correct

There was also a 'Series 3' VS 5L...which was the exact same as the VT 5L...this is only in regards to the Statesman etc... Not the Sedan I think. But that used the Getrag 5 speed as well. So it was only the 179kw 5L that got the Getrag transmission.

AirStrike

[1991_Vn2nV]

haha thanks for clearing that up Airstrike

You learn something new everyday

[Boonz]

Theres quite a difference in all the blocks. First of all the VR/VS blocks are cast clearnaced from factory to accept the 350 stroker cranks as used in the GTS/Senator 215i's, the VN/VP blocks are not. So if your going a stroker in the future and use a VR/VS block its one less thing that needs machining.
AirStrike

the first VN blocks can accept a 383 stroker without machining as it doesnt have the chamfer at the bottom of the cylinder. Thats what i was shown when i was gettin my block machined when i rebuilt it.

[AirStrike]

the first VN blocks can accept a 383 stroker without machining as it doesnt have the chamfer at the bottom of the cylinder. Thats what i was shown when i was gettin my block machined when i rebuilt it.

I'd like to see that!! Even if the crank will fit there is no chance of the rod big end clearing.
AirStrike

[Boonz]

thats just what i was told by the engine reconditioners, could of been a different crank/rod/piston combination to make it fit but they said it fits

[Ls2_307]

just a quick stupid question i have always wondered....

i know holden motors v8's always used to be a 5.0l (308) and still made 308's right up until the VL series (i think). However they introduded the 4.9l (304) in '85 to race in the under 5l category in Group A. Now ive always thought that the VN-VT efi v8's where always 304ci as i know the VL grp A walky and the VN SS group A were homogulated (big word, proberbly is wrong) to run in grp A as well, hense i assumed that since then holden v8's have always been a 304 (until the ls1 of course). Can someone clarify this for me?

[1991_Vn2nV]

304 has been used in the Holden V8's since the June 1985 VK's right through to the VT series 1. VK and VL were carby, VN to VT series 1 were EFI

[Ls2_307]

yeh i figured that, however did the VK and VL carby models both feature a 304 Group A motor, and a 308 std motor, or were both 8's 304, just the group A motors with much more fruit inside them?

[1991_Vn2nV]

They were only available with the 304.

[greenfoam]

The first 304 was in the group A VK SS or mid way in the VK range (June 1985), Now one thing I'm not clear on is this. I'm not sure if all the black VK motors are equiped with the A9L stengthened parts or was that only after they swaped to 304's?, my memory is telling me all black motors were A9L motors but I may be wrong.

Anyway the A9L motor it's almost the same motor as the L34 motor and that was the go fast engine in the L34 LH Torana which only has one purpose in life and that was to win Bathurst but this time around they made it slightly smaller to go under 5 liters.

This was so the Commodore could race under the international Group A rules without a massive weight penelty. The took some VK's over to Europe and did very well with them.

All the VL motors had bigger valves and heads like Brock B cast, but only the go fast models got the special A9L heads, except the Walkinshaw which got totally new and better heads again. And then you get to the VN-VS 304 which is the culmination of all the laps around Bathurst rolled into one fantastic race motor and then sold in production cars with a boat towing manifold thrown on top to ruin the whole show :P.

The VT is better again since it runs a roller cam. And as mentioned above if you are really lazy and can't be stuffed die grinding the block for a few minutes to fit a stroker crank the VR-S motor allready has had it done in the factory

[AirStrike]

If you want to know about all the differences I suggest having a look at 'How to rebuild and hotrod Holden V8'. It covers all 253, 308 and 304 motors from the HT to VT.
The VK is the most confusing of all commodores to work out engine wise as there are so many variables:
There are the blue motors (308), L31 (stock 126kw) and the V5H (HDT 177kw).
Then there are the black motors (304), LV2 (stock 125kw), V7X (HDT/SS 170kw) and V5H (HDT 177kw).
Finally there is the red A9L fitted to the VK SS Group A which makes 200kw.
The same rods were used in all 253 and 308 motors up to the VK (except the L34). When the change to 304 happened all 304's except the A9L(SS Group A and HDT) and XV2 (Walky) used the L34 rods.
AirStrike

[RVK 355]

cheers for that dylan,
that was the info i was wanting,

and most of all i am very intressted in knowing about the nose of the vl being lower would it cause problems to the engine like the rb30?

To answer that question, is no it wont cause any problems with the cooling system, unlike with the RB 30, you can literally run these motors red hot and they wont crack a head,

Dont forget you will also need to change your front cross member to a V8 cross member.

I have recntly done this conversion a few months ago, so if ya need to know anythign else just ask

if your after a motor for a good price contact churnit.

the only real main different between VN/VP to the VR/VS is mainly the computer as the VR/VS run a new delco

[white vn ss]

as i said vt 5 litres are s**t because of all the pollution gear they had to bring in onto the motor. made it very restrictive horsepower wise. best 5 litre is the vr/vs as said by others aswell.

[AirStrike]

as i said vt 5 litres are s**t because of all the pollution gear they had to bring in onto the motor. made it very restrictive horsepower wise. best 5 litre is the vr/vs as said by others aswell.

Ummmmmm what pollution gear?? The VT is the final refinement of the 5.0, the crowning glory!!
AirStrike

[VL Berlina 5speed]

To answer that question, is no it wont cause any problems with the cooling system, unlike with the RB 30, you can literally run these motors red hot and they wont crack a head,

Dont forget you will also need to change your front cross member to a V8 cross member.

I have recntly done this conversion a few months ago, so if ya need to know anythign else just ask

if your after a motor for a good price contact churnit.

the only real main different between VN/VP to the VR/VS is mainly the computer as the VR/VS run a new delco

yah cheers for the info about the cooling system, gathering all the info i can so when i gain the money to do this it should work easy and little dramas.

yah i was thinking about churnit for the motor as he seems to always have a efi 5ltr laying round, but im going to be looking for the 5spd aswell as i cant stand autos anymore

also one last thing when you did this conversion did you have to change the steering coloum to a vn steering coloum? as i was told it was a must....


this vt as the best 304i debate sounds like the vl and vk event, when the motors changed to unleaded and had to reach a polution mark the power lose of the vls motor was evernet,

[pandaman]

Ummmmmm what pollution gear?? The VT is the final refinement of the 5.0, the crowning glory!!
AirStrike

Main changes were roller lifters and the smaller heart shaped combustion chambers right? I can't think of any sacrifices made in the name of pollution control either, the only downside is the barge of a vehicle they're pulling.

[RVK 355]

yah cheers for the info about the cooling system, gathering all the info i can so when i gain the money to do this it should work easy and little dramas.

yah i was thinking about churnit for the motor as he seems to always have a efi 5ltr laying round, but im going to be looking for the 5spd aswell as i cant stand autos anymore

also one last thing when you did this conversion did you have to change the steering coloum to a vn steering coloum? as i was told it was a must....


this vt as the best 304i debate sounds like the vl and vk event, when the motors changed to unleaded and had to reach a polution mark the power lose of the vls motor was evernet,

Nah ya wont have to change the steering colunm if you use a VN V8 K frame and VN power steer rack it will bolt straight up to your intermetiate shaft and all,

Another bonus about doin a conversion from a RB 30 VL is that the battery is in a good spot and air box as well

[RVK 355]

And also aobut the comment about the VT 5ls being restricted because of the emison gear thats BS

the VT roller cammed 5l is probably one of the best holden motors that came out

[walesy]

Nah ya wont have to change the steering colunm if you use a VN V8 K frame and VN power steer rack it will bolt straight up to your intermetiate shaft and all,

Another bonus about doin a conversion from a RB 30 VL is that the battery is in a good spot and air box as well

can you still use the power steer rack from the rb30 k frame or wont it fit??? im just about to swap k frame and front struts