Factory LPG (APA) - guage weirdness

[vh-holden]

Taking a long shot here, but if anyone has an APA lpg system (preferably factory) could they have a look under the cover on the tank at the gauge. I've just had the ten year refit done and the gauge in the dashboard is doing some funky stuff. When i picked the car up, it showed it was half full. The gauge in the boot said full. After 3 days of general driving around, the guage in the dash is up about 3/4 and the one on the tank is also 3/4.

I'm wondering if the wires have been hooked up wrong. It took 3 visits to get the car to actually run in a driveable state, so goodness knows what else could be going on!!

If it matters, it is a VS, but i'm guessing the APA system is pretty much the same on all gas mixer applications.

[commsirac]

There are two wires to connect to the sender(one to earth and one from your dash gauge), and it doesnt matter which way they are connected, so its more than likely that something is on the way out. The gauge in the tank is the more likely culprit, its also the easiest to replace, undo two screws and it is out, replacement ~$40. The VB-VS comms all run the 280-40 Ohm sender/gauge(it is an integrated unit), should be able to see that written on the gauge on the tank. Typically if the gauge on the tank shows half fill, that should be mirrored by the gauge in your dash.....whether in fact the gauge in the tank is reading correctly is controlled by the level control in the tank..........needs the tank to be evacuated to fix if that is kaput, could be this bit was compromised when they did the removal and testing.

To actually test which gauge is faulty, next time you think it is playing up.........grab a multimeter, go to the tank, and firstly observe the reading on the tank gauge......is it the same as the gauge on the dash? If same, most likely dash gauge is okay.
Secondly pull one wire from the sender/gauge and measure the resistance across the terminals of the sender.
The values will be 282 Ohm empty and 30-40 Ohm full, half full is ~ 100 Ohm from memory...... If its showing 282 Ohm and your dash gauge also says empty and you know its half full then your problem is most likely with the sender. The sender actually works by magnetically detecting where the float level is in the tank.....the magnetic part can play up.....give the gauge a tap......if it changes....magnetic part is obviously sticking.
Leave you with it, report back on how you go.

[crazywog]

i hope uve gone straight gas and not duel fuel?

[vh-holden]

There are two wires to connect to the sender(one to earth and one from your dash gauge), and it doesnt matter which way they are connected, so its more than likely that something is on the way out. The gauge in the tank is the more likely culprit, its also the easiest to replace, undo two screws and it is out, replacement ~$40. The VB-VS comms all run the 280-40 Ohm sender/gauge(it is an integrated unit), should be able to see that written on the gauge on the tank. Typically if the gauge on the tank shows half fill, that should be mirrored by the gauge in your dash.....whether in fact the gauge in the tank is reading correctly is controlled by the level control in the tank..........needs the tank to be evacuated to fix if that is kaput, could be this bit was compromised when they did the removal and testing.

To actually test which gauge is faulty, next time you think it is playing up.........grab a multimeter, go to the tank, and firstly observe the reading on the tank gauge......is it the same as the gauge on the dash? If same, most likely dash gauge is okay.
Secondly pull one wire from the sender/gauge and measure the resistance across the terminals of the sender.
The values will be 282 Ohm empty and 30-40 Ohm full, half full is ~ 100 Ohm from memory...... If its showing 282 Ohm and your dash gauge also says empty and you know its half full then your problem is most likely with the sender. The sender actually works by magnetically detecting where the float level is in the tank.....the magnetic part can play up.....give the gauge a tap......if it changes....magnetic part is obviously sticking.
Leave you with it, report back on how you go.

Thanks for that. It all makes sense. The guage in the dash is now reading full.

A dodgy gauge could also explain why i was charged $58 for LPG but only had half a tank. $58 worth would be a full tank plus some for testing/tuning/

i hope uve gone straight gas and not duel fuel?

It's the factory fitted system so is dual fuel. I've owned it for just over two years now. It ran on LPG for about 6 months, then started getting really rough and after about 12 months the LPG was useless. After the service, it is running beautifully. It is actually smoother on LPG than petrol. As soon as it starts to run rough I will go and get the mixture sorted.

I've thought about going straight gas, but that could limit me if i wanted to drive from darwin to anywhere south of katherine. Most places have LPG these days, but there is no guarantee that the pump will be working that day. One servo between here and alice didn't even have a working ULP pump, the only available fuel was PULP.

[commsirac]

Does your dash gauge work ok on petrol?
Re going straight gas, unless you have good plans on utilising the space where the petrol tank is/was then really no great advantage. The fact system also relies on starting on petrol and full acceleration and might be a little trickier to run as reliably as lpg only......I dont really know if the fact system gets the computer to advance the timing a little.
It is setup basically to run well on either fuel.

[vh-holden]

I assume it works on petrol. I haven't really checked as i've been on the LPG the last week.

At the moment, something must be set dead perfect as 3/4 of the time it will start on the LPG.

[vh-holden]

Update - just went and filled up with LPG. Dash gauge was showing just under full, tank gauge was between 1/2 and 3/4.

After filling the dash now reads 1/2, and the tank gauge is just past the full marker. I put in 29.17L (@75.9c -4c mind you).

[vh-holden]

and another update - went and checked it with the multimeter, and noticed that the gauge/sender is labelled 90-0 or 0-90. The multimeter was reading about 92.

This would make sense as the dash guage would read 90ish as being half and then 45, which is half on the tank as full.

Looks like i'm going back to the gas place again to ask what the go is with it. I'm guessing they stuffed up by putting the wrong thing in. It looks pretty new, but i can't see it listed on the invoice.

[commsirac]

Couldnt quite follow all your descriptions of what the gauges were showing. Do you feel that the gauge on the tank is giving the correct reading, yet it is not being transferred to the dash gauge properly.

The 0-90 Sender is a universal one, possibly it was all that was available ten years ago at the time of the installation and a conversion box may have been used to match it up to your fuel gauge.....think they were called camtech or something......may be a fault in this device, which is most likely buried up under the dash. The 0-90 sender should read 45 half scale etc.

has your dash gauge read under 3/4 full yet?
If they had for some reason replaced the proper 282-40Ohm unit with the universal 0-90 Ohm unit, your gauge would move in the wrong direction and go off the high end of the scale once the tank moved under half full.......hope they havent done this!

[vh-holden]

Ok, I'll try and be a bit more coherant this time. The christmas lunch is out of my system now!!

I filled the tank up yesterday. The gauge on the tank read full. The one in the dash read 1/2.

I drove 200km today. The gauge on the tank is down around 1/2, the one in the dash is up to full.

I think they have done what you are suggesting with your last comment. It starts at 1/2, and slowly goes up. I'll see what it does once the tank drops to below a half. will the needle keep going anti clockwise past full?

I think the gas mob (There is only one in darwin that I know of) is closed til after new year.

Thanks for all your help. At least I've got something to hit them with.

[commsirac]

What you report sounds very consistent with sticking the 0-90 sender in there......goodness knows why they would have changed it over......

Certainly dont continue to use it once you dash gauge has gone full scale......the resistance of the sender will have dropped below that designed for the dash gauge and burn out the dash gauge.........that would be messy to fix.
Either disconnect the sender wires at the tank below 1/2 full or keep the tank above 1/2 full.

[vh-holden]

What you report sounds very consistent with sticking the 0-90 sender in there......goodness knows why they would have changed it over......

Certainly dont continue to use it once you dash gauge has gone full scale......the resistance of the sender will have dropped below that designed for the dash gauge and burn out the dash gauge.........that would be messy to fix.
Either disconnect the sender wires at the tank below 1/2 full or keep the tank above 1/2 full.

If it burns out they can pay to fix it!! Nah, i think i'll disconnect the wires and keep checking in the boot for now.

I can't wait to hear the excuse this time!!

I took the car in two weeks ago to get the gas refitted and asked them to get it running on gas.

Picked it up, and drove home on gas, which was a little rough, but i figured that was just the way gas was. Drove to work the next morning and it stalled at an intersection. Rang them and said it wasn't running. Took it back that arvo and a ballast hose was disconnected. They put it back on, using a hose clamp this time. Was also told that I'd only asked to get it running, not running perfect, or words to that effect.

Drove home, still a bit rough. It did a big bunny hop (in an auto) but then kinda ran. The next morning it wasn't running on LPG at all. It wouldn't idle in the morning, and in the arvo i managed to left foot brake it all the way home, until it died halfway through an intersection, at which point i switched to petrol and didn't bother. Rang them again and got told to bring it back in. I left it a few days so i could clean up some stuff so they could also finish the rego inspection. It went to another mechanic to get that work done (engine mount and steering rack)

They had it all day last friday. It turns out a hose had perished, and that it was probably stretched and broke when the engine mount was changed. Funny, considering it was running like rubbish before the engine mount was changed. I pointed this out to the office girl and she went quiet.

It runs nicely now though, i'll give them that much.

[Cheap6]

If it is a factory LPG system, the 0-90 ohm sender will definitely be wrong, and behave in exactly the way described. I thought that the correct sender is 220-0, rather than 280-40, though.

[vh-holden]

If it is a factory LPG system, the 0-90 ohm sender will definitely be wrong, and behave in exactly the way described. I thought that the correct sender is 220-0, rather than 280-40, though.

cool. i'll try and find a definate number for the correct sender so i can put them in their place.

[vh-holden]

according to the chart at http://www.apamfg.com.au/Downloads/p...t%20Poster.pdf the sender is 282-40

[vh-holden]

fuel gauge is the least of my worries now. the hose that sends water to the heater/converter/whatever it is called has decided that it would be a good thing to blow itself off late on a friday afternoon. the plastic fitting has snapped off and left half of itself in the hole.

[commsirac]

Fairly straight forward problem and solution, need another plastic fitting.......( I suppose thats the hard part.....along with getting the broken bit out) never liked those plastic bits!
Just a tip for when you are refilling with water.....bleed the lines to the convertor so that you are sure that the hoses and it are full right from startup......even run it on petrol first to get any air gaps out. Freezing the convertor up will obviously stop it and can cause sequential problems from having been frozen. Its actually much colder on the inside....the "freezing" just means youll see water from the air turning into ice on the convertor surfaces.

[vh-holden]

Fairly straight forward problem and solution, need another plastic fitting.......( I suppose thats the hard part.....along with getting the broken bit out) never liked those plastic bits!
Just a tip for when you are refilling with water.....bleed the lines to the convertor so that you are sure that the hoses and it are full right from startup......even run it on petrol first to get any air gaps out. Freezing the convertor up will obviously stop it and can cause sequential problems from having been frozen. Its actually much colder on the inside....the "freezing" just means youll see water from the air turning into ice on the convertor surfaces.

Dad called out roadside assistance. The bloke said it will need to go to the gas place as the fitting is fiddly to get at and the convertor needs to come out. The thread will need to be cleaned out cos it is glued in.

I'll have another look in the morning, but at this stage it has to be towed there. I reckon i could bypass the converter all together though and run on petrol to drive it for the weekend and to the mechanic when they open again sometime next week. There are two hoses running from the drivers side of the motor to the converter. one hooks up to the motor and the other to where the hoses for the heater go to the firewall. If i put a loop in from the outlet and inlets on the engine, it would bypass the heater and the converter.

[commsirac]

If i put a loop in from the outlet and inlets on the engine, it would bypass the heater and the converter.

That would be fairly engine safe.

[vh-holden]

well, whattaya know. the other fitting on the converter has snapped as well. dad was looking at it and gave it a slight wobble. hardly any force and it came off in his hand.

i've got two straight fittings and 30cm of hose bypassing it now.

[commsirac]

well, whattaya know. the other fitting on the converter has snapped as well. dad was looking at it and gave it a slight wobble. hardly any force and it came off in his hand.

.

LOL
Best not let dad touch anything for a while!

[vh-holden]

LOL
Best not let dad touch anything for a while!

I'm glad dad touched it and did it while it was parked in the driveway and not out on the open road.

also very relieved that it didn't let go on thursday while i was doing a 240km round trip with phone reception only half the way.

[vh-holden]

here is what i've done to bypass the converter. $24 of brass fittings, hose clamps and hose.



is there a fuse/relay i could pull so that the lpg isnt' accidently switched on?

[commsirac]

here is what i've done to bypass the converter. $24 of brass fittings, hose clamps and hose.



is there a fuse/relay i could pull so that the lpg isnt' accidently switched on?

There is, but as discussed in another thread its possibly runs off the fuel pump relay.
A sure easy way is to just remove the +ve wire (wrap it tie it so it cant short out on anything) from the lpg supply solenoid under the bonnet, its right in the middle of your photo, this stops the flow of gas from the tank into the convertor.
Do it yourself, just incase your gorilla dad wrecks something else.......just kidding!

[vh-holden]

it's booked in for monday morning for them to have a look at the sender. it's not on the invoice though so he doesn't know why it would be different. i've explained that they are the only people to have touched the gas system between it working and not working.

as for the fittings. they deteriorate over time. it is just coincidence that the time is after it's been to them 3 times in 3 weeks. brass ones going in on monday, unless the other gas place is cheaper for labour, then they can do it.