Wat's wrong with the Alloytech?

[Calaber]

I often read posts where guys like the VZ and VE, but not the Alloytech. In some cases, the motor is the reason they won't buy one of those models (if they are after a V6).

Now, I realise the Alloytech isn't a torquey motor like the ol' Ecotech was, but what's behind the general dislike of this motor from so many on the forum?

In our family, we have my VY Berlina, a VY Exec (both Series 2) and a VZ Acclaim wagon. The Exec gets off the mark like a scalded cat, the VZ is close behind and my Berlina is definitely slower off the mark than both.

I drive the VZ wagon frequently and it goes well - quick off the mark, good on-road response and easy, quiet cruising. Considering it's pulling a heavy wagon body around, I reckon it's a decent motor. Others dont - why?

[f1tzy]

I am quite harsh on it because i normally have a bit of weight in the back of my ute and under 3k revs it is really sluggish which is not what i want and not like the falcon 6. When my ute is unloaded it is better but still should be better

[danja]

I thought the Alloytec actually had more torque than the Ecotec, and that it was available over a wide range of RPM? "90% of torque is available between 1600 and 5500rpm" or something like that was the marketing line.

A lot of people seem to have trouble distinguishing between engine/exhaust noise, and performance - maybe that's why people seem to think it's better above 3000rpm? I don't know, I haven't driven one for any length of time.

The Ford 6 is a torquey motor, the Ecotec was a slug low-down too.

[greenfoam]

Everyone only bags it because the Ford is better and that's not the way it should be

[VL_5SPEED]

Ummmmmm because its a V6 and would most likely be an auto.

[88GreenVN]

THe VZ V6 ex Telstra thrasher I have is a bullet on the open road. Slug off the lights. But hey its a family car and it does that job very well and returns very good economy.

I give the alloytech engine 10 out of 10

I give the electronic engine control 5 out of 10. (for steeling all the low down touque)

[BANKS]

I drove a VE v6 calais rental when i was last down in melb and thought it was good. I did notice that there was alot of engine noise coming threw which i didnt expect. Nice smooth gearbox

[ve safari]

Very happy with my VE SV6/6M - would love to slot that drivetrain into my VP!

[sircruisealotVS]

i've driven a VZ with one of the 190kw alloytec's in it and wasn't that fussed on it. sure it was a nice car, with uber smooth power delivery and feel to it but it just didn't ever feel toey or ready to go - it was always "oh, the throttle's open...i'll think about moving in a second or two..."
which i guess has alot to do with that queer fly-by-wire throttle body gear. but the whole engine seemed alot more like the japanese cars i've driven (toyota's and mazda's) which need the rev's really kept up to feel like its reacting.

[f1tzy]

I thought the Alloytec actually had more torque than the Ecotec, and that it was available over a wide range of RPM? "90% of torque is available between 1600 and 5500rpm" or something like that was the marketing line.

A lot of people seem to have trouble distinguishing between engine/exhaust noise, and performance - maybe that's why people seem to think it's better above 3000rpm? I don't know, I haven't driven one for any length of time.

The Ford 6 is a torquey motor, the Ecotec was a slug low-down too.

Yea i really cannot see the 90% torque available between blah blah because it really doesnt feel like it. I think it should be 10% available between idle and 3000

[1991_Vn2nV]

Everyone only bags it because the Ford is better and that's not the way it should be

Pretty much. The alloytech is fine when you're comparing it to the Ecotech, but thats an engine that was basically introduced in the 80's in buick form, and goes much further back than that.

With improvements in engine tech, they didn't do much with it. The Falcon I6 is a better engine from a drivers point of view and there is the problem.

But personally I have to say it does cop more than it should because of the transmissions. The 6 speed auto in the VE is not in the same league as the ZF 6 speed and the fact the omega and berlina retain the 4 speed item is a joke considering again its basically the same transmission I have in the VN.

Im looking at selling the Liberty at the moment and im most likely going to buy a Mitsubishi 380 GT for a daily instead of a VE omega, because I don't want to pay $20k and still be stuck with a 20 year old transmission and an engine I don't like, when for 18k I can get a fully optioned GT with leather interior and 5 speed auto with a more economical 3.8L engine that hauls ass compared to the alloytec. I'd love a VE, but I don't want a 6L daily and don't want to pay 30k for a V6 so I can get a 5 or 6 speed auto.

[danja]

Maybe the Alloytec is different, but I love the drive-by-wire in the SS. It's very responsive, possibly even more so than a conventional cable would be, because the computer can see what the driver is "trying" to do with the pedal, then set the exactly the right throttle position and fueling etc to achieve it.

[andyman]

hmm, i have vcm suite, im currently building a tune for my car, just removing the torque managment makes a huge difference, although creates a few issues with the trans, which ive currently 90% sorted


the doughyness of the alloytec is just shit tuning, the ve spec tune is much better,


also f1tzy, has your ute had all of the holden computer updates? there is one update that has changes to the throttle map or something, makes them a fair bit more responsive, i think there was a batch with a bad version of a tune, if you drive one with the old tune you will know, they hardly have and balls down low until you hit about 4.5k rpm

[CANYONERO]

Pretty much. The alloytech is fine when you're comparing it to the Ecotech, but thats an engine that was basically introduced in the 80's in buick form, and goes much further back than that.

With improvements in engine tech, they didn't do much with it. The Falcon I6 is a better engine from a drivers point of view and there is the problem.

But personally I have to say it does cop more than it should because of the transmissions. The 6 speed auto in the VE is not in the same league as the ZF 6 speed and the fact the omega and berlina retain the 4 speed item is a joke considering again its basically the same transmission I have in the VN.

Im looking at selling the Liberty at the moment and im most likely going to buy a Mitsubishi 380 GT for a daily instead of a VE omega, because I don't want to pay $20k and still be stuck with a 20 year old transmission and an engine I don't like, when for 18k I can get a fully optioned GT with leather interior and 5 speed auto with a more economical 3.8L engine that hauls ass compared to the alloytec. I'd love a VE, but I don't want a 6L daily and don't want to pay 30k for a V6 so I can get a 5 or 6 speed auto.

when you look at it like that the 380 all of as suddenly looks a lot more appealing.

[commsirac]

All the fuss about low down power, would be important if they came with only a 2 speed gearbox, or become weasy at 4000rpm, but they dont. If you cant manage to get the car in the power range with the current selection of gearboxes something is wrong.
The engines happily spin to 5000rpm+ whats the problem with going over 2000rpm occasionally. If you want an engine thats at its maximum power in a narrow range of 1500-2200rpm buy a cummins diesel.

[danja]

All the fuss about low down power, would be important if they came with only a 2 speed gearbox, or become weasy at 4000rpm, but they dont. If you cant manage to get the car in the power range with the current selection of gearboxes something is wrong.
The engines happily spin to 5000rpm+ whats the problem with going over 2000rpm occasionally. If you want an engine thats at its maximum power in a narrow range of 1500-2200rpm buy a cummins diesel.

Fuel efficiency and drivability.

[commsirac]

Does the alloytech use more fuel than the previous motor or the ford? hardly?
It does when pushed hard? evidence please!
Driveability, do you mean being able to drive it around in a manual and never have to change out of 6th?

[TVR-190]

Does the alloytech use more fuel than the previous motor or the ford? hardly?
It does when pushed hard? evidence please!
Driveability, do you mean being able to drive it around in a manual and never have to change out of 6th?

can we see your evidence that suggests otherwise

[danja]

Does the alloytech use more fuel than the previous motor or the ford? hardly?
It does when pushed hard? evidence please!
Driveability, do you mean being able to drive it around in a manual and never have to change out of 6th?

I'm not comparing it to other motors. All else being equal, an engine producing torque at a lower RPM should use less fuel than one producing it at a higher RPM. It's to do with friction and inertial mass.

I have driven manuals since the day I got my L's till today, and I know the benefits of having low-end tractability. Tell me, what kind of transmission does your VX have?

Evidence please you're not just out for a troll.

[stocky]

Ummmmmm because its a V6 and would most likely be an auto.

nissan gtr is a v6 too

[HSV472]

nissan gtr is a v6 too

no its not its a inline 6

[SweetWagon]

no its not its a inline 6

He's talking about the R35...

[stocky]

He's talking about the R35...

exactly, otherwise i would have said skyline

[Troy711]

the doughyness of the alloytec is just shit tuning, the ve spec tune is much better,

I'll agree with that. My Statesman is 300Kg heavier than my VZ S ute but feels a hell of alot better. It responds quicker and is no where near as sluggish as the VZ. Apart from the boat-like ride it's a brilliant car to drive and feels alot more refined than the ute.

[commsirac]

I'm not comparing it to other motors. All else being equal, an engine producing torque at a lower RPM should use less fuel than one producing it at a higher RPM. It's to do with friction and inertial mass..

All things are not equal here, the alloytech is lower displacement, and I would be confident in therefore concluding lower "reciprocating mass".
The design of both engines is hardly the same either, while one may produce more torque at low rpms, it could be very inefficient at that motor speed. Although friction losses are higher at larger rpm, it is still more fuel efficient to spin a small motor faster for the same power output then a larger motor slower,...... obviously or the car manufacturers would be pushing 10L v8s at us telling us they use less fuel.