Gas

[T-MaKK]

hey guys...

im lookin to buy a VX in about 3 months ill have about 8.5k but id like to convert to gas WELL within that price.

since i dont know much about gas conversions... well yeah... please enlighten me

prices aswell... n whts the deal with the rebate?

thanks xD

[bigfut]

Used HOLDEN COMMODORE VX EXECUTIVE 2001 - Victoria - CarPoint Australia
Here's one where you wouldnt have to install lpg. In the vx there seem to be quite a few already with lpg, and some with factory fit.
The earlier the lpg was installed the better, if you choose to go that way, as lpg is cleaner burning, so is nicer for the engine. I used to have a 02 vx exec factory lpg, and was up to 210,000kms and still going strong, ran really well on gas, and open road I would get 550-600kms out of an 80L tank.

In regards to an install, my ve was quoted at 4950 installed, for an injected system, but a vx you could have the older style system which taps into the air intake (not sure of actual name of it sorry), which should be cheaper, this system worked fine in my vx, it can sometimes cause a backfire that exits through the air intake box, but this is generally caused if you get a shit fill, similar to if you get crap petrol, your car wont run too flash, but other than clipping the air box closed again, thats about it.

The rebate is done through centrelink, you print a form off the net from the website, and then hand that in, to centrelink with the installer certificate, and they will give you the $2,000 rebate for the install, Ill be doing this when my install gets done soonish.

The only pro I thought I might mention in regards to getting a petrol vx and then doing the install, is you can opt for a doughnut tank in the spare wheel well, and retain the bootspace, where as the factory fit option is an 80l tank behind the back seat, so almost halves the bootspace.

Hope this helps you, if you need any more info just ask.

[T-MaKK]

i have a preference of a wagon over a sedan, they are just more versatile imo..

ive heard its the standard thing to use the spare wheel well in wagons... but what happens to the spare wheel? lol

i thought of something els to ask aswell.. but ive forgotten... so yeah... theres prolly gonna be more questions :P

EDIT:
also.. i live in SA.. so id really like to buy in SA..

the idea of flying over, buying and driving back sounds nice.. could turn it into a road trip with some mates.. but realistically.. i think it'd be a bad idea...
spending the money for fly over, accommodation, transport, etc.. i would be disappointed and out of pocket if i didn't come home with a car.. so im gonna be preasured to buy a car if i fly over..

[bigfut]

I wasnt sure what state you were in, so just pulled that one up. The spare in wagons sits upright against the side back window with a little cover on it normally. Not sure if its the same in the vx, but the vz wagons have a doughnut tank, and the floor is raised slightly to accomodate the tank, thats in the factory fitted one

[bigfut]

Couldnt find a commodore wagon, heres a falcon, same thing is done anyway.

[commsirac]

The deal with the rebate is you get $2000 back from the cost of the conversion. atm the basic factory system for the vx whould be able to be fitted for less than $3000 - rebate = ~$1000, if you go donut tank etc, it maybe more expensive. There are conditions that shouldnt affect you for the rebate , but look them up. The factory setup for the vx is superior to the aftermarket offerings and well worth paying slighter more for.

Based on the rebate, IMHO its possibly a better option to buy a low mileage petrol example and convert, rather than an already converted example. The converted car will still demand some premium over a car that hasnt been converted, dont really understand why with the rebate, though perhaps because its ready to roll with the stuff already fitted and all the teething problems sorted(or more likely a host of problems happening).
The converted car is far more likely to have travelled huge distances and the lpg system in need of attention, unless it was the factory system in perfect condition, Id steer clear. Lpg tanks must be tested every ten years, they dont have to be....but if you are going to keep on the right side of your insurance company or need to get a rwc, then it must have the date of the test stamped on a label on the tank. One reason to keep in mind how old the install is when you buy, the test is ~$2-300.

also if you only look for converted cars, you restrict the offerings hugely.

[poweredbycng]

You can either install a mixer-based system or an injected system on a VX. The "factory" systems were mixer-based systems using IMPCO equipment which is probably the type of conversion you should be asking for, unless you wish to go the injected route. Just make sure you change your spark plugs religiously often, as backfires through the intake system will result if you don't. Contrary to what has been said above, backfires are rarely caused by bad gas unless the gas quality is so bad that the stoichiometric ratio is way out, and even the your gas computer should be able to compensate for that.

Regards,
Dave

[HamaTime™]

ok I don't know what half these guys are talking about but...

Gas conversion can be done in these ways

1. Duel Fuel - With an injection system that taps onto the air intake (previously mentioned) Costs around $2500 (give or take a few hundred dollars depending on the place you get it done and whether you have a donut tank or a standard boot tank) take $2000 off for the rebate, ends up only being around $400 - $600 out of pocket
2. Duel Fuel - Direct Injection system that injects the gas straight into the engine (doesn't lose any power, performs the same as petrol) Costs around $4500 (give or take a few hundred dollars depending on the place you get it done and whether you have a donut tank or a standard boot tank) take $2000 off for the rebate, ends up only being around $2400 - $2600 out of pocket
3. Straight Gas system - take out the fuel tank and have the car run on dedicated LPG, running either of the two systems stated above. (costs around $3500 for standard or $5500 for direct injection (price once again varying on factors listed above)

In respect to the first system (the tapped air intake - which is what I have on my VS), you lose about 20% power and 20 - 30% economy, due to the nature of LPG and the system in which it is injected and burnt. I have a 75 litre gas tank in my boot (you can only fill gas tanks to 80% of they're capacity to allow for expansion and other safety factors) so this turns out to be around 60 litres full capacity. I get around 250 k's out of a tank of gas, and I don't give it a bootful, rarely do I ever get above 4000rpm...

In respect to the second system (the direct engine injection system), you don't lose any power compared to petrol, but LPG is still uneconomical, losing around 15 - 30% economy, depending on the car.

MAJOR POINT

LPG being a 'cleaner fuel' is debatable, LPG puts more stress on the engine, and parts do wear out quicker. Gas does eventually do more damage to your engine than petrol. Hence you ask every single person on this forum, and everyone will agree that LPG is for vans, taxis and other 'unworthy' vehicles.

However, due to the current economic circumstances, with Petrol being ridiculously overpriced...more people are turning towards LPG as a cheaper way of running their cars. I agree, I am one of those people who have converted their cars (I'm a full time uni student, I do alot of driving). Gas is good for me...however, if I had plenty of money, I would always choose to run my car on petrol.

[commsirac]

ok I don't know what half these guys are talking about but...[*]Duel Fuel -.

what's duel fuel?

ok I don't know what half these guys are talking about but...

MAJOR POINT

LPG being a 'cleaner fuel' is debatable, LPG puts more stress on the engine, and parts do wear out quicker.

If you talked about CO2 emissions you'd be right, but all other emissions are less, parts wear out quicker? only valves and seats that arent designed for them

ok I don't know what half these guys are talking about but...

Hence you ask every single person on this forum, and everyone will agree that LPG is for vans, taxis and other 'unworthy' vehicles..

yeh right.

Gas is good for me...however, if I had plenty of money, I would always choose to run my car on petrol.

Same for me, but then again if that was the case I wouldnt even need to drive a car.

[T-MaKK]

awesome.. thanks for the help.

ill be completly honest.. i wanna buy a commo so i have the power/comfort to put the car sideways occasionally.. but i also want better economy. (one of my best friends is movin about 40ks away, and i wanna be able to see them as often as i can.. and since ims till at school workin at foodland, without a lpg conversion i wont be able to afford to.)

but yeah.. lol i duno..

the 2nd dual fuel option looks like what ill need.

[HamaTime™]

what's duel fuel?

Duel Fuel, you've got to be kidding me asking a question like that, car can run on LPG or petrol....

If you talked about CO2 emissions you'd be right, but all other emissions are less, parts wear out quicker? only valves and seats that arent designed for them

Ok well I'm not a mechanic, so I can't tell you the exact parts that wear out quicker and all that. It is common knowledge that gas is not healthy for your car. If it was, tell me this. Why isn't every car manufacturer producing all they're cars on LPG only. If petrol is so expensive and gas is just as clean for your car and more environmentally friendly and more than half the price of petrol. Why hasn't the whole world changed to running all cars off LPG. Why is petrol still being sold. The whole idea of LPG is a cheaper less efficient, fuel. it damages the engine more than petrol and is less efficient. Also, if only valves and seats that aren't designed for gas are the only things that wear out, why aren't they replaced to make them better for gas....?

^ that also answers your question, name one person on this forum that would 100% say that LPG is a better fuel than unleaded or high octane petrol. Why are cars and LPG systems referred to as 'BBQ'? its a crude fuel used for your barbeque...its not an A grade car performance fuel.

Same for me, but then again if that was the case I wouldnt even need to drive a car.

Why wouldn't you need to drive a car? if you had heaps of money, thats not going to automatically teleport you somewhere!!

I have never heard someone say that LPG is a better fuel than petrol. most people including me only have it because it is cheaper...I was never debating that fact, I was merely outlining the pros and cons of LPG systems. of course this guy is going to put LPG on his car as he has already said. But at least he is wiser to the idea of duel fuel and LPG cars and systems

[bigfut]

In respect to the first system (the tapped air intake - which is what I have on my VS), you lose about 20% power and 20 - 30% economy, due to the nature of LPG and the system in which it is injected and burnt. I have a 75 litre gas tank in my boot (you can only fill gas tanks to 80% of they're capacity to allow for expansion and other safety factors) so this turns out to be around 60 litres full capacity. I get around 250 k's out of a tank of gas, and I don't give it a bootful, rarely do I ever get above 4000rpm...

I would seriously get your car checked out, that is some really bad economy there, especially never giving it a bootful

[HamaTime™]

thats just gas mate...my mates VR Wagon gets the same, my mates VS SS gets a little more....maybe 300k's, mates VT gets around 300..., mates VX Berlina gets around 250

LPG is not efficient around the city man, I spend over 4-5 hours each week in peak hour traffic, bumper to bumper...gas is not economical in these situations...long cruises its fine, I got to Albury and back...had just under 1/4 of a tank left...

[bigfut]

Wondered how long it would take for an argument in this thread to start

Ok well I'm not a mechanic, so I can't tell you the exact parts that wear out quicker and all that. It is common knowledge that gas is not healthy for your car. If it was, tell me this. Why isn't every car manufacturer producing all they're cars on LPG only. If petrol is so expensive and gas is just as clean for your car and more environmentally friendly and more than half the price of petrol. Why hasn't the whole world changed to running all cars off LPG. Why is petrol still being sold. The whole idea of LPG is a cheaper less efficient, fuel. it damages the engine more than petrol and is less efficient. Also, if only valves and seats that aren't designed for gas are the only things that wear out, why aren't they replaced to make them better for gas....?

^ that also answers your question, name one person on this forum that would 100% say that LPG is a better fuel than unleaded or high octane petrol. Why are cars and LPG systems referred to as 'BBQ'? its a crude fuel used for your barbeque...its not an A grade car performance fuel.

I have never heard someone say that LPG is a better fuel than petrol. most people including me only have it because it is cheaper...I was never debating that fact, I was merely outlining the pros and cons of LPG systems.

Is it actually common knowledge that gas is bad for your car or just another anti lpg comment made by people who dont like what they dont know about? These "unworthy" cars you speak of such as taxi's, courier vans etc do hundreds of thousands of kms generally being used harder than normal passenger cars, without self destructing or needing parts replaced due to lpg killing them. I have seen courier vans with 500,000kms on them, still going strong, taxis with similar milage, and they dont seem to have issues, so I cannot see an issue with putting a car which does minimal kms in comparison to these on gas.
If its so bad then why do Holden and Ford provide warranties on their lpg vehicles, surely if it was bad for them, they wouldnt dare offer that?

Cars are made to demands, simple as that. Most people want a petrol car, thats economical, and cheap, and lpg adds cost, so not for everyone. Hence thats what we have. Fleet buyers are starting to want large cars that are cheap to run, so we now see lpg falcons and commodores to suit. Lpg is not everyones cup a tea, so they dont make them like that. Also another point is if everyone was on lpg, it would run out quicker much like petrol which would result in price rises, so with the current lpg cars in the market, its good for us who use it, yes?

Emission wise CO2 outputs are important, and LPG cuts it by 10% at the exhaust, but apparently LPG has 90% less NOx than petrol and virtually zero particulate emissions, so that has to be good right?

I am a person that is on this forum, and wouldnt hesitate to recommend lpg. In my experience it is reliable, good for my car, and cheap. My oil was never black like it was at the end of 10,000kms like petrol either.

I have even seen an dedicated lpg dragster in nz, along with competition 4wd's (V6 & V8) using it, so again if it was bad would they use it?

I admit people have different experiences with lpg, some sh*t, some great. Could be to do with a bad installer, or the fuel as some people believe. All I can argue & offer is my experiences with it, all good.

[bigfut]

thats just gas mate...my mates VR Wagon gets the same, my mates VS SS gets a little more....maybe 300k's, mates VT gets around 300..., mates VX Berlina gets around 250

LPG is not efficient around the city man, I spend over 4-5 hours each week in peak hour traffic, bumper to bumper...gas is not economical in these situations...long cruises its fine, I got to Albury and back...had just under 1/4 of a tank left...

Thats surprising, our vx could get 4-500 in city driving, but not rush hour. Interesting

[HamaTime™]

Wondered how long it would take for an argument in this thread to start



Is it actually common knowledge that gas is bad for your car or just another anti lpg comment made by people who dont like what they dont know about? These "unworthy" cars you speak of such as taxi's, courier vans etc do hundreds of thousands of kms generally being used harder than normal passenger cars, without self destructing or needing parts replaced due to lpg killing them. I have seen courier vans with 500,000kms on them, still going strong, taxis with similar milage, and they dont seem to have issues, so I cannot see an issue with putting a car which does minimal kms in comparison to these on gas.
If its so bad then why do Holden and Ford provide warranties on their lpg vehicles, surely if it was bad for them, they wouldnt dare offer that?

Cars are made to demands, simple as that. Most people want a petrol car, thats economical, and cheap, and lpg adds cost, so not for everyone. Hence thats what we have. Fleet buyers are starting to want large cars that are cheap to run, so we now see lpg falcons and commodores to suit. Lpg is not everyones cup a tea, so they dont make them like that. Also another point is if everyone was on lpg, it would run out quicker much like petrol which would result in price rises, so with the current lpg cars in the market, its good for us who use it, yes?

Emission wise CO2 outputs are important, and LPG cuts it by 10% at the exhaust, but apparently LPG has 90% less NOx than petrol and virtually zero particulate emissions, so that has to be good right?

I am a person that is on this forum, and wouldnt hesitate to recommend lpg. In my experience it is reliable, good for my car, and cheap. My oil was never black like it was at the end of 10,000kms like petrol either.

I have even seen an dedicated lpg dragster in nz, along with competition 4wd's (V6 & V8) using it, so again if it was bad would they use it?

I admit people have different experiences with lpg, some sh*t, some great. Could be to do with a bad installer, or the fuel as some people believe. All I can argue & offer is my experiences with it, all good.

Ok I think everyone has misunderstood me, I too reccommend gas to everyone. I am well aware of the fact that taxi's and vans do have minimal problems with 500,000 on the clock or more. as I said before, I have gas on my car, I love it, at least the cost side of it, costs me $20 a week ,compared to $70 or $80. My only complaint with gas is that it is less efficient, sluggish and less powerful. Other than that it is great. I have never driven a direct injection LPG car so I can't argue for or against it. I know for a fact that HSV are looking into the future about producing a whole range of dedicated LPG cars. great, nice and cost effective.

The purpose of my last few posts is to outline the pro's and con's with gas. The pro's outweighed the con's in my case, hence why I have my car on Duel Fuel, and I can safely say that that is why every single LPG car owner says the same. I'm not a mechanic so I can't give technical descriptions of how bad it is for your car in detail. My mechanic and a host of other places including the highly respected company that did my conversion told me that gas has 80% efficiency and power compared to petrol...bla bla bla as I all stated before, and specifically told me that gas does do more damage to your car compared to petrol, but as long as its serviced on time and kept in good conditions, there will be no complaints...(this may sound like a scam to keep me coming back and buying stuff, but its what a host of other sources have told me)

although, Given the choice i would run my car on high octane fuel all day every day...

[bigfut]

Its funny who you speak to and who tells you what. The installer who did ours, said how great it was for your car, how it cleaned the oil almost (explained how if you didnt change your oil, it would go clear rather than gold), etc etc, but then your installer told you the opposite. Will we ever know the truth? lol

[HamaTime™]

Its funny who you speak to and who tells you what. The installer who did ours, said how great it was for your car, how it cleaned the oil almost (explained how if you didnt change your oil, it would go clear rather than gold), etc etc, but then your installer told you the opposite. Will we ever know the truth? lol

lol!!!!!

oh well...there will always be two sides to a truth that seems plain...just depends which side of the fence you sit on

[commsirac]

Duel Fuel, you've got to be kidding me asking a question like that, car can run on LPG or petrol....

Really, so what is dual fuel?

Ok well I'm not a mechanic,

Shucks, you had me fooled.

If it was, tell me this. Why isn't every car manufacturer producing all they're cars on LPG only. If petrol is so expensive and gas is just as clean for your car and more environmentally friendly and more than half the price of petrol. Why hasn't the whole world changed to running all cars off LPG. Why is petrol still being sold. The whole idea of LPG is a cheaper less efficient, fuel. it damages the engine more than petrol and is less efficient. Also, if only valves and seats that aren't designed for gas are the only things that wear out, why aren't they replaced to make them better for gas....?

Car manufacturers dont care whether its clean or not, they'd only care if they couldnt meet the current emission regs with petrol. It costs more to make a car run on lpg, the tank cant be put anywhere being one of the major drawbacks. Car manufacturers only want to build what sells, lpg even in this country is not available everywhere and many consumers wouldnt touch it(for good or bad reasons).
LPG supplies the world over arent as plentiful as Australia.
LPG burns just as efficiently in current combustion engines as does petrol, it burns even more efficiently if the engine is designed for lpg with higher compression ratio.
You are confusing the efficiency of combustion with the fact that per unit volume lpg has 24% less energy than petrol. So if you are measuring the volume of fuel, the lpg usage will be higher, however, if you are measuring the weight of the fuel, petrol use will be higher.
Typically motors that are built for unleaded petrol are fine for lpg and the head components last just as long, in older leaded petrol motors motors rebuilt for gas have this mod done.

.although, Given the choice i would run my car on high octane fuel all day every day... ...

You have got a lot to learn, have you looked up the octane rating of lpg?

[HamaTime™]

Shucks, you had me fooled.


Car manufacturers dont care whether its clean or not, they'd only care if they couldnt meet the current emission regs with petrol. It costs more to make a car run on lpg, the tank cant be put anywhere being one of the major drawbacks. Car manufacturers only want to build what sells, lpg even in this country is not available everywhere and many consumers wouldnt touch it(for good or bad reasons).
LPG supplies the world over arent as plentiful as Australia.
LPG burns just as efficiently in current combustion engines as does petrol, it burns even more efficiently if the engine is designed for lpg with higher compression ratio.
You are confusing the efficiency of combustion with the fact that per unit volume lpg has 24% less energy than petrol. So if you are measuring the volume of fuel, the lpg usage will be higher, however, if you are measuring the weight of the fuel, petrol use will be higher.
Typically motors that are built for unleaded petrol are fine for lpg and the head components last just as long, in older leaded petrol motors motors rebuilt for gas have this mod done.

You have got a lot to learn, have you looked up the octane rating of lpg?

ok well there is no need to be rude about it

and i'm not going to try and persuade you or prove to you anything, so if you want to believe that LPG is the perfect fuel and solution then thats fine...it's not the perfect solution though

I know LPG has a high octane rating, still doesn't prove anything...

Really, so what is dual fuel?

wtf?

[commsirac]

wtf

whatever wtf means, I assume its not complimentary

.....perhaps you could look up dual and duel in the dictionary as a little homework assignment before you pack your lunch for school tomorrow.

[HamaTime™]

whatever wtf means, I assume its not complimentary

.....perhaps you could look up dual and duel in the dictionary as a little homework assignment before you pack your lunch for school tomorrow.

as I said you didn't need to be rude about this...but since thats the only way of getting your point across then fine. Maybe you should go back to school and learn how to debate a point without being rude

and ok fine your going to argue with me on a spelling mistake? whatever...

[commsirac]

as I said you didn't need to be rude about this......

Perhaps think twice before taking me on with the sarcastic nonsense that you went on with. Ill discuss things politely with people that do likewise, fools that do otherwise deserve some comeback.

[minux]

Perhaps think twice before taking me on with the sarcastic nonsense that you went on with. Ill discuss things politely with people that do likewise, fools that do otherwise deserve some comeback.

The only fool here is you, sick to death of every reported post being about you. Sick of hearing how everyone except you is a fool. Sick of it all.

So find another forum to troll, you are perm banned.

[danja]