Manifold insulators problem/flaw?

[treyflip]

Hey everyone,

At the moment my setup on my VZ SV6 is something like

Pacemaker full length headers
100 cell stainless cats (i think)
2 1/4 inch catback
Underdrive pulley
Mace Insulators
Growler Intake (previously mace)
VCM tuned

Pulling around 155.1rwkw...

Now i've had the insulators in from the beginning of modding the car and can't remember whether it did it without them. The problem occurs in active select in 2nd gear.
When changing from 1st to 2nd gear around 3000rpm the car during acceleration in 2nd will have a hiccup around 2300rpm. The revs go up, cut out then start back at around 2100rpm.
Its more prominent at half throttle. I can also replicate the problem at most mid range revs if i take off in first 1/2 to 2/3 throttle and change at around 4000rpm into second, again it will accelerate for a while then cut out as if it was in a phantom gear (only dropping by about 200 revs) and continue to accelerate.
It only happens in second gear.

Can it be confirmed if the change in runner length after the insulators causes confusion in the computer hence causing uneven acceleration?

Can anyone tell me if anyone else experiences this problem and is a common but accepted flaw in the vz alloytecs?

And lastly while im here, is it possible to remove the plenum and inlet manifold at once to reach the head as i have a snapped plenum to head bolt that I need to remove.....

ANY THOUGHTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED!


Ps. The car has been tuned before the exhaust and after all mods and the problem was still there making me think it could be a factory flaw... But I will be taking the insulators off to see if it resolves the problem.

[treyflip]

Oh and i forgot to mention it is the 5spd auto hence active select.

[DevilDRake]

There's been no problem with mine, but mine is a VY not VZ.

I was almost going to call bullshit on the figures, but then i realised you were talking about a VZ not a VY.

[treyflip]

Haha, nah its a VZ...
I had another mate with a vz ute that ive been in but didnt get a chance to drive it before he sold it, I think his might have had the same problem in active select but can't remember too well. It was stock.

The only other thing is maybe if someone else with a VZ 5spd auto can see if happens in there car and post back...

[kuzman89]

I'd blame the tune before I blamed the manifold insulators. There is no reason why increasing the runner length would do this unless the tune is out imo

[one_and_only2004]

And lastly while im here, is it possible to remove the plenum and inlet manifold at once to reach the head as i have a snapped plenum to head bolt that I need to remove.....

ANY THOUGHTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED!

I'd be blaming this Before anything else.

[immortality]

Flat spots would be tune related or a vac leak from the broken bolts. No way that will be from the spacers

[treyflip]

everything is sealed and it has.nothing to do with the bolt. its been there eversince I've had the spacers. it was there.before the exhaust before and after two tunes... its not.a.vacuum leak. also its not as though it just hovers.on a certain rev like a flat spot its more like the car changes into another gear.. sorry i can't explain it any better. it does not happen in drive only active select

EDIT: "its been there eversince I've had the spacers." meaning the flaw in acceleration not the snapped bolt. the bolt only happened a couple days ago. This problem has been since i can remember which was when i changed to the spacers.

[adz_vy]

the fact that it doesn't occur in drive tells me it probably not the spacers. If you are sure that it only happens in active select then my money would be on the auto or tune.

[treyflip]

as it seems like a phantom gear, could it be related to the gearbox or diff? i mean the car seems like it has 2 changes per gear in auto, i dont understand that? im beginning to think im going to have to accept that auto alloytecs are spastics of cars. unless someone else with a 2005 sv6 could test it out for me and see if it happens in theirs..

[vsv6dude]

So remove the spacers ASAP and see what happens.

Does the VZ have a power button on the auto trans ?
200rpm - 300rpm is the approx the diff between the economy mode and power mod.
Is it caught between the 2 programs when trying 2 shift between gears?

This is what my VS does when I manually play with the power button.

Take it easy on me I am not a mechanic just thinking out loud on the internet.

[ephect]

So remove the spacers ASAP and see
.

^^ this is the only way to truly rule out the spaces as an issue, or the issue.

[Z3RO]

I want to buy a set of these insulators. I need to contact Mace. They will work with the CPR6 I trust.

[MACE]

Can take them off to see how it goes I guess. I'm guessing it's more to do with the calibration myself, or lack there of with the 5 speed autos sadly

If the problem still occurs, you may want to consider physically bumping up the line pressure in the box to prevent it from slipping between gears.

Or there maybe something mechanically wrong with the box, who knows. It's a case of process of elimination now, to resolve your issue.

The problem you're experiencing is definitely not common, based on the shear number of insulators we've supplied over the years, so I would be most grateful to be kept in the loop as to what the outcome is

Please keep us posted

Cheers,
Steve

[MACE]

I want to buy a set of these insulators. I need to contact Mace. They will work with the CPR6 I trust.

On VE's apparently they actually make the installation process of the CPR6 easier. The only catch is that the manifold can rub up against the plastic cowl of the firewall (apparently not an issue) and longer bolts are required (which we don't supply)

If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers,
Steve

[immortality]

everything is sealed and it has.nothing to do with the bolt. its been there eversince I've had the spacers. it was there.before the exhaust before and after two tunes... its not.a.vacuum leak. also its not as though it just hovers.on a certain rev like a flat spot its more like the car changes into another gear.. sorry i can't explain it any better. it does not happen in drive only active select

EDIT: "its been there eversince I've had the spacers." meaning the flaw in acceleration not the snapped bolt. the bolt only happened a couple days ago. This problem has been since i can remember which was when i changed to the spacers.

If it's only doing it in active select and not when in normal Drive then it's a tuning issue otherwise it would also happen when it's in drive. I would suggest that the issue is most likely related to the torque management function (aka torque limiting) due to the fact that the 5speed auto's are a bit weak.

Problem may not be as noticeable with the spacers removed because of the reduced torque

[torana355]

Mine does this with the spacers in A/S mode aswell. Mine actually does it in 3rd, 4th and 5th and it is just the Torque converter locking up as it is suppose to. Though since i got the spacers it has started doing it in second gear where the Torque converter can not lockup so it has to be a different issue???

I think immortality might be on to something there. Since the spacers add torque down low the computer may be getting confused. Ive had most of the torque management taken out with a VCM tune though i know Dale could not get rid of all of it.

[Stewlz]

I have a similar thing in my sv6 in drive which feels like a small flat spot on the rev range somewhere in the high 2000's, haven't tried it in a/s but I will and report back if anything weird happens. Feels like the revs hover for a sec then continue upward without dropping.

Question for Steve: were the vz insulators made for keeping intake temps down primarily? And was the thickness of the insulator 12mm for heat reasons or was that a calculated thickness which aided the runner length for smoother airflow and better torque, I've always wondered if perhaps the flat spot it turbulence in the plenum/ runners?

Cheers!

[MACE]

I have a similar thing in my sv6 in drive which feels like a small flat spot on the rev range somewhere in the high 2000's, haven't tried it in a/s but I will and report back if anything weird happens. Feels like the revs hover for a sec then continue upward without dropping.

Question for Steve: were the vz insulators made for keeping intake temps down primarily? And was the thickness of the insulator 12mm for heat reasons or was that a calculated thickness which aided the runner length for smoother airflow and better torque, I've always wondered if perhaps the flat spot it turbulence in the plenum/ runners?

Cheers!

"were the vz insulators made for keeping intake temps down primarily?"
Runner length

"And was the thickness of the insulator 12mm for heat reasons or was that a calculated thickness which aided the runner length for smoother airflow and better torque"
The thickest spacer we could go

"I've always wondered if perhaps the flat spot it turbulence in the plenum/ runners?"
It appears most likely calibration related, in particular the 5 speed auto component.

Does this happen to anyone else in their alloytec, especially in drive?

[treyflip]

Ok so right now im waiting for the car too cool down completely as i already have 1 snapped plenum bolt , but when its ready im pulling the plenum and inlet manifold to get the bolt out, replacing the inlet gasket and removing the spacers and putting a normal gasket, and changing my 5 old remaining coil packs.
After this, hoping all goes well, i'll have brand new coilpacks and spark plugs, no spacers, car will be sealed nicely and i will reset the computer and see how it runs. If it still does it then it is completely auto related. The tuner did a great job on the tune (twice) and i dont think this problem can be addressed via tune.

MACE, could you elaborate on the line pressures? how can it be done and will this give firmer shifts? im very interested!

In the mean time heres a direct like to a video of it happening around 3500rpm.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/121/qjr.mp4

[Stewlz]

Yeh that's real weird mines nothing like that, just a hiccup. Cheers for the reply mace.

[torana355]

In the mean time heres a direct like to a video of it happening around 3500rpm.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/121/qjr.mp4

Yep that's exactly what happens with mine with the spacers.

[MACE]

Ok so right now im waiting for the car too cool down completely as i already have 1 snapped plenum bolt , but when its ready im pulling the plenum and inlet manifold to get the bolt out, replacing the inlet gasket and removing the spacers and putting a normal gasket, and changing my 5 old remaining coil packs.
After this, hoping all goes well, i'll have brand new coilpacks and spark plugs, no spacers, car will be sealed nicely and i will reset the computer and see how it runs. If it still does it then it is completely auto related. The tuner did a great job on the tune (twice) and i dont think this problem can be addressed via tune.

MACE, could you elaborate on the line pressures? how can it be done and will this give firmer shifts? im very interested!

In the mean time heres a direct like to a video of it happening around 3500rpm.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/121/qjr.mp4

If it's torque management related (which I think it is), then it's likely that nothing else can be done with the calibration. I'm not confident that firming up the line pressures in the box will help either as the computer may spoil the party by backing off the throttle

Yeh that's real weird mines nothing like that, just a hiccup. Cheers for the reply mace.

Does it still have the factory tune?

Yep that's exactly what happens with mine with the spacers.

Does it happen anywhere else, besides under high load?

[torana355]

Does it happen anywhere else, besides under high load?

Yeah it happens in all gears except 1st, so the engine needs to be under load. I can understand why it does it in 3rd though to 5th due to the torque converter lockup but it should not do it in second gear.

[MACE]

Yeah it happens in all gears except 1st, so the engine needs to be under load. I can understand why it does it in 3rd though to 5th due to the torque converter lockup but it should not do it in second gear.

Probably the fact that there is now more being produced by the insulators, hence the problem occurring. If Dale couldn't sort it then it would be very likely a limitation of the tuning software. I could be wrong though, therefor an open to other possibilities