Opel Commodore C

[Wesuri]

Greetings from the north to down under!

My name is Jukka and I'm an Opelholic . I live in Finland, northern Europe.

As you may know there is a lot in common between Opel and Holden and I've been looking through various Australian sites for info about Holdens. I spotted these rather large Just Commodores forums and as it is nice to view your cars here I decided to post my Opel Commodore C's here too.

Opel Commodore C was the car that ended the history of Commodore in the Opel model palette to 1982. It was started with Opel Commodore A in 1967 and was continued with a B-model from 1972 until C took over in late 1977. This same car was also the start for Australian Commodore legend that continues to this day.

Below are my two C models, both are projects and need new paint among many other things. On the right a -79 4dr sedan Berlina (Berlina was the name of higher accessory level on various Opels from early 70's on, as was Berlinetta) with original 2,5S Opel cih (cam in head) engine. On the left a 1981 4dr sedan Berlina that has it's 2,5 liter straight six swapped to a 3 liter injected piece from Opel Omega or Senator.


The original engine options were limited to 2,5 liter straight six that was available in two versions, either with one carburetor (2.5S 115hp) or injected (2.5i 130hp). It's predecessors had more variations in 2,5 and 2,8 liters, hp up to 160. The A-model was raced in it's day with a crossflow head and other mods with some 300hp.

rear view


side




interiors




under the hoods




I'd be interested in finding out the differences in the bodies of an Opel Commodore C compared to Holden Commodore VB. So far I haven't seen any but as it is claimed that 110 million aus$ was put strenghtening the Opel there has to be some. Is there some literary about more precise actions that were taken or something? Or do we have to reverse-engineer, slice them and compare . I know Holden used it's own engines and axles but the body mods would be interesting to find out.

[Wesuri]

Here's a link to a great german site that has tons of pics and info of various Opel models
Senatorman

Many of them were further developed in Australia, like Senator A, Senator B and Omega B.

There are also pics of the C-Commo 2dr sedan which Holden didn't have it it's range. However I just read somewhere in these forums that a small series of Holdens were converted to 2dr by some small company using Opel side panels...

[Jo3_Blo]

Wow, that's cool!

Theres another guy that was on here a while back with something like these (opelboy)

They look like a version of what we call the VB/VC/VH Commodores.

[aj318]

hehe, the opel steering wheel, its huge

[Wesuri]

You should see the steering wheel of the Commodore A, THAT one is huge .
Commodore A
Uusi sivu 1

Yes I read the Opelboys thread, some nice E-Rekords there. Rekord is the car that Commodore was based on. Rekords were 4cyl and Commos 6cyl, other differences being the axles and some trim.
the model generations are related as follows:
Commodore C - Rekord E
Commodore B - Rekord D
Commodore A - Rekord C
Rekord A and B had 6cyl versions too, they carried the massive old Opel ohv-giant originating from the 30's. Rekord C also had small 2,2 liter cih-6 for a while but from then on the 6cyl models were divided to their own Commodore range.

And yes this is the same body as in your VB-VC-VH. VK-VL were based on Opel Senator A. VN-VP-VR-VS on Opel Senator B and VT-VX-VY-VZ on Opel Omega B. Now we have been hoping Opel would in turn release your new VE as Omega C or something but that is just dreaming.

[Wesuri]

Happy new year 2009, mates!

Here's a more recent view over my Commodores .

[Jo3_Blo]

Very nice, I've always like two-tone.

[PaulSV6]

Wow, didnt think id see a Commodore, let alone a VB/C in that part of the world.

[ausrs]

hope you have had fun trying to find out the differences between our commodore and your opel variant of it
there was an article published in Australian Muscle car magazine a month or so about an opel Monza that had been converted to a Vh monaro ( or what it would have looked like IF it had been made )
basic differences
our commodore was evidently a mixture of a rekord(sp) and a senator )
we have rack and pinion steering
the shock towers on our cars are approx 25mm bigger in diameter
radiator support panel is different
thats all i remember from the article in the magazine although i do remember many other things had to be beefed up to suit our conditions
hope that helps you out somewhat
ohh and the main thing different between ours and yours
We got a V8 in our version

[Wesuri]

Well the engine thing is clear. That is what generates the most interest towards the Australian Commodores. Apart from that I haven't found out anything solid about the structural body differences yet so your info is very welcome.

So much money is said to have been put in the development of the Opel Commodore to fit the Austalian conditions that there had to be some bigger steps to get the body stiffer than the Opel was, but what were they.

There are pretty much no differences on the exterior, no differences in the interior (except you steer from the wrong side ).

It always confuses me when the Australian sources sometimes mention that the VB was a mixture of Opel Rekord E1 rear and Opel Senator A front but never mention that it was a direct derivative of the Opel Commodore C which itself already was a Rekord/Senator hybrid.

Oh, and now Vauxhall is offering the Holden derived VXR8 Bathurst S edition in the foggy island but Opel is just happy with the Insignia OPC on the continent. Well, it doesn't look too good at Opel at the moment anyway so I'll forgive them.

[Calaber]

I can recall the motoring magazines out here at the release of the VB detailing the extensive body strengthening needed. I remember that during early prototype testing, the body suffered extensive fatigue cracking in the firewall area and the subframes were an obvious point that needed strengthening. The front rails and suspension towers would have also required it because of our rugged terrain, poor roads and the need to run V8 engines with their additional weight.

According to one of my references, Holden had to redesign the engine bay because it would only hold a six cylinder engine, nothing larger. During the process, the sheet metal in the engine bay was reinforced for Australian conditions.

I will quote the text for you. The quotations are those of senior Holden engineers at that time, Ray Grigg and Don Wylie.

"As the Germans built the car, it was absolutely useless in Australia. The front end wasn't strong enough. The engineers took it out to a favourite test road in the Flinders Ranges - one of the roads that they've recreated in part at the proving ground - where you can literlly make the car fly.

"They had strain gauges on the body and they sent the information back to Germany saying this is not going to work. The Germans said "No, you're wrong, there's no way you can record these strain levels, your gauges must be wrong." So the engineers thought, well, the Germans are pretty clever and they must be right. So they went back with more cars and did it again, getting exactly the same results each time. The Germans ended up coming out here and they committed us for being absolutely mad. Cars were not designed to be driven on roads like that. They reckoned that if you wanted to go to places like Ayers Rock, (before the road was sealed), or into the Flinders Ranges, you took a truck. But they had their introduction to the sort of durabilit we required."

"Some of the cars didn't even get past Dubbo, didn't get off the bitumen before they started falling apart. The dry struts were jamming up and then the front end structure just started coming apart as if it had been hit with a sledge hammer. The bodies were buckling above the rear mudguards which was caused by overloading of the rear suspension and consequent failure of the rear parcel shelf where it joins the rear quarter panel."

Hope that helps to understand where the strengthening took place and why it was necessary.

[Wesuri]

Excellent Calaber, that's the kind of stuff I am after.

Ok so wider shock towers and harder steel at front. I think we need to continue by posting pics of our Commodores chassis, engine bay and boot+parcel shelf to find out how the geometries differ. Maybe there are explosion pics and measurement cut off pics of both somewhere...

If the metal material was different then I think it has to cover the whole "frame" area if not the whole body. Does this mean Holden had it's own presses for all the body panels for VB/VC? I mean that were the exterior panels also pressed in Australia or were they imported from Germany?

With the later generations with increasing differences it's natural that they were all made locally. Where were the Holdens assembled?

One can't help wondering how much would it cost to import a VB here .

I also wonder if Opel learnt anything from the Aussie tests and did they reinforce the Rekord E2 body according to the findings. Commodore C and Rekord E1 were discontinued in 1982 and Rekord E2 continued from there with only 4cyl models. E2 body was totally redesigned from the outside, don't know about the "inside".

Opel Senator A and B continued with 6cyl but their bodies were a bit bigger than the VB/VC Commodore, corresponding those of the VK and VN Commodore. I wonder if similar Aussie-Reinforcements were done to them also or were the Opel bodies any stronger to begin with than the Commodore C was?

[Calaber]

Hi Wesuri

I don't have any specific photo's of the VB body modifications - perhaps they are on the net somewhere. My Commodore is a much later model (2004), based on the original 1996Omega.

From the commencement of production in 1978, Commodores were built in Australia, using locally pressed bodies, engines and mechanical parts and various imported components. The extensive modifications required for Australian conditions would have necessitated local manufacture as they could not have been simply added on to imported Opel bodies. Holden's manufacturing plants were spread across the country in the late 70's. There were plants in Elizabeth, (South Australia), Fisherman's Bend, (Victoria) and Pagewood (New South Wales). Pagewood was closed down in the early 80's. I think all production is now carried out at Elizabeth.

I doubt that Opel would have bothered adopting the Australian reinforcements - if the existing Opel bodies were suitable for Europe, there would have been no need to change them.

With regards to body size on the early Commodores, I recall that Holden used the basic Record shell from the firewall back, but the longer Senator nose to accommodate the six cylinder engines, so our Commodore would have been the same length as the Senator, but looked more like the Record. The VK and VL Commodores changed the rear door and roof pillar design to the six window shape of the Senator, so that these two models looked like your Senator, but were a few years later in appearing (1984 - VK).

The VN Commodore was a real problem for Holden because at the time, the company was in severe financial trouble and design and development money for a new model was very tight. The VN used the side pressings of the new Opel, but a widened version of the earler model Commodore floor pressing, to keep costs down. Many mechanical parts carried over, including engines, transmissions, suspension, steering and brakes. The body was made wider for Australian tastes, as the Comnodore had lost market leadership to its main contender, the Ford Falcon, which was a substantially larger car.

The VN Commodore, released in August 1988, was not a particularly rigid design. Enlarging the earlier floorpan and adapting the later Open design external components was an effective marketing strategy, but the body rigidity suffered. Any reinforcements that Opel incorporated in the equivalent Commodores in Europe may not have been relevant because of the hybrid design adopted by Holden for the VN. For example, the VN retained a live rear axle only - I think the equiivalent Opel would have adopted IRS on all models by that time, so the entire rear floor pressings would have been different. Holden only adopted IRS when the long wheelbase Statesman was released in March 1990.

If Opel adopted any Australlian reinforcements in later European Commodores, it would only have been done where economical or essential. Our conditions here reamin much harsher than Europes, except for the winter. We don't salt our roads to eliminate snow as the snow regions are much less prevalent here. Our summers are much hotter and the climate is generally much warmer than Europe, (with the exception of the Mediterranean areas), distances far greater and road conditions generally poorer. The sort of body strengthening required for Australian conditions is not necessary for European conditions.

That said, it is likely that European and Australian body structures are much closer in rigidity and durability these days because of the need to meet crash safety requirements and legislation.

[Wesuri]

Opel did renew the Rekord body completely when they moved from E1 to E2 model in 1983. It would have been a good moment to bring along the reinforcements. E2 was produced until 1986, then it was replaced by Omega A and the story of the Rekord was over. Omega was also offered with 6cyl engines so the Commodore kind of lived in disguise again. As far as I know, Holden never used Rekord E2 or Omega A designs.

Here's a pic of a 1985 Opel Rekord E2 that I bought for spare parts. The underside of the body is rotten by salt and water. interior is pretty much the same as in Commodore C and the engine is the same as in older Rekords from 1966 onwards.

[hingo1983]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks guys! It is great hearning about the history of our great cars. My parents had a VC SL/E, it was such an awesome car. Velour trim, fancy analogue clock in the dash, alloy wheels and even windscreen wipers on the headlights (these were removed). We traded in an old Triumph 2000 for it That Triumph was so low it would scrape on all sorts of things.

[greenfoam]

Wesuri, The local Commodores were 100% pressed here but I wouldn't really believe the spin about the body being stronger. The early Commodores are not a strong car, I can't imagine them being any weaker from Opel. Supension sure, body I doubt it. That would be just some commerical spin to make some sales .

I can take pictures of a VH let me know what you want to see. I also have a 1992 VP with IRS and I'd like to compare the IRS setup with the early Opels and I suspect it would be idenitcal

[ausrs]

Wesuri, The local Commodores were 100% pressed here but I wouldn't really believe the spin about the body being stronger. The early Commodores are not a strong car, I can't imagine them being any weaker from Opel. Supension sure, body I doubt it. That would be just some commerical spin to make some sales .

I can take pictures of a VH let me know what you want to see. I also have a 1992 VP with IRS and I'd like to compare the IRS setup with the early Opels and I suspect it would be idenitcal

it is well documented that Holden spent millions strenghtening up the opel design for Aussie conditions ,

[hingo1983]

Agreed. They even did the rally racing in them. I doubt they would even consider that if they were a weak car to begin with.

[Wesuri]

Well, pretty much everything has and is been rally raced here so that's no excude to anything. Rally cars are usually strenghtened anyway by those who race them.

I don't think that nothing was done to strenghten it, but do we know where all the money went? Maybe the folks just drinked so much beer trying to figure out what to do .

It just so conveniently happened that a week ago I bought an Opel Omega A 3000 -88 to replace my -79 Commo as a daily driver. This one already has an IRS. Cw is as low as 0,28.







Hopefully the Commo will evolve to a hobby racer now .

[Calaber]

Wesuri, The local Commodores were 100% pressed here but I wouldn't really believe the spin about the body being stronger. The early Commodores are not a strong car, I can't imagine them being any weaker from Opel. Supension sure, body I doubt it. That would be just some commerical spin to make some sales .

I can take pictures of a VH let me know what you want to see. I also have a 1992 VP with IRS and I'd like to compare the IRS setup with the early Opels and I suspect it would be idenitcal

Greenfoam

If you read my earlier post on this thread, I quoted two senior Holden engineers who provided statements regarding the lack of durability of the early Opel built bodies during VB development. I doubt that they would have made such statements up and were pretty specific about the sorts of failures encountered.

I can also remember at the time of the VB's release, how much information was provided by the company regarding the strengthening required. Wheels magazine had a diagram of the VB shell with the modified panels highlighted in red against a yellow body. There was strengthening in the scuttle, sub-frames, inner rear quarter panels and roof reinforcements.

It's fair and accurate to say that the Opel bodies were grossly inadequate for our conditions and required extensive modification to withstand our roads as well as the engineering necessary to accommodate the weight of the V8's.

[red_vb]

hi there WESURI just letting you know i have a vb early girl you should check out my couple of pis i will be putting a pic of the motor on shortly, but its great to see that yours are still going strong as is mine....

[Wesuri]

That would be interesting rouge. I have checked some of the rides on the VB/C/H/K corner of these forums, fascinating stuff.

Yes, classics just go stronger and stronger . The biggest enemy of the Commodores we have, just like any older (and especially newer) Opel is rust. The frames, skirts and arches are usually very well corroded and welding is needed. Engines (CIH) can tackle heavy loads of kilometers. Lot's of iron with low output is usually a durable solution .

Two years ago I still used my -68 Rekord delivery as a daily driver. In poorer conditions it felt a bit primitive (and frightening) and so I bought the Commo for winter use. I still have the Rekord (and three other 60's pieces as projects) waiting for inspiration and evolution. Now I tried to swap my other C-Commo to an older A-model but it seems I may keep it (and buy the A later). Good thing perhaps 'cause I already have some plans for the track with it.

I'd just need to build a huge garage to get all the junk under the same roof . Now they are scattered and nothing happens...

(btw, the delays on posting to this forum are vvvery annoying)

[PaRaDoX]

correct me if im wrong but is that a non crossflow head in the 88 opel???

i think id prefer the opel version to the old vn commodore

[Calaber]

correct me if im wrong but is that a non crossflow head in the 88 opel???

i think id prefer the opel version to the old vn commodore

The interior is certainly a cut above the VN, that's for sure.

[Smitty]

Wesuri, The local Commodores were 100% pressed here but I wouldn't really believe the spin about the body being stronger. The early Commodores are not a strong car, I can't imagine them being any weaker from Opel. Supension sure, body I doubt it. That would be just some commerical spin to make some sales .

you never saw the mule from Opel..that broke the chassis rails
in the Flinders ranges during VA Commodore development
nor the problems with the tops of the strut towers splitting open
nor the rear shocker housing coming away from the boot floor

Opel engineers did not believe what GMH engineers reported...until they saw it for themselves
The end result....
The final VB body is far stronger in certain areas than the Opel equivalent ....based on these failures

also generally stronger where it had to be...to carry a V8 engine
and to control a large solid rear Salisbury axle

but of course the Holden engineers didn't fix everything ...the seat mounting problem (cracks in the floor) they missed