Change In Supercars

[bangers]

there is talk of adding different makes into the world of supercars. whats the regs? it has to be a family car, it has to be RWD, it has to come out with 6cyl and V8 option, and it has to sell a certain amount in a year. Also it has to be primarily an aussie car, not european or american, doesn't it? so who's gonna step up to the challenge. talk is Mitsubishi. Umm ok, could be interesting. what about an aussie chrysler? that would be great to see. but do we really want any other cars other than Ford and Holden? If they do introduce other makes should it then be a separate class race? or should they all run together?

[hakhawk]

theres been talk of this for a few years now, main contenders are mitsubishi and toyota, but im pretty sure regs would make it the car has to come out in a v8, as thats what holden n ford are running. hence V8 supercars. and im pretty sure only toyota have a v8, not mitsubishi, and its only what a 4litre.

i doubt its gonna happen, leave them for the open classes, where they are running the clubbies n that in, all different cars.

[ucwepn]

OK the rules are as follows (roughly)= Ford falcon sedan or holden commodore sedan of no more than 5 years old of the current shape. modifications will need to be made to keep the cars up to date I.E-VX changed to VZ (extreme example). Control 5 litre holden motorsport engine (chev design identicle to the ford design),control double wishbone front suspension, control holinger 6 speed gearbox. All metal panels must be retained and all glasswork must be retained.

The rules change every year and I have lost interest in the sport since they ruined it by making all the cars into fords.

Toyota took a copy of the rulebooks to study but that was 4 years ago and nothing has been said since.

If toyota or mitsubishi were to enter they would have to enter RWD 5 litre cars that are either ford or holden under the shell LOL

[hakhawk]

so essentially, theyd be the same as the cars now, with a different look and other drivers, most likey guys currently in teams.

i prefer to watch the lower classes, they have more fun. oh, and the utes, theyre just nutso

[Thomo]

The word i heard was that holden laid down the law to avesco by saying if any other car makers come into the series that they will pull out all support completely.That was the word from my mates dad who worked for holden for 25 years.

Cheers

[ucwepn]

If holden withdrew factory support there would not be a big change as there are mostly control components supplied by 3rd party manufacturers. Holden just supply bare shells to the teams and they don't give them away.

[1991_Vn2nV]

Mitsubishi are the ones that want in on the V8 Supercars but they cant afford it. Toyota can afford it, but they arent as keen. Lets face it, its a huge gamble for Toyota. They would need to produce a large family sedan car with a V8, and with the gen IV holden engines its a very competitive market that Toyota would struggle to compete in. They would have to design a car and bring in a large, powerful engine that can compete with the Gen IV engine made by GM which is the largest automotive company in the world.

It would also take a few years to get out the flaws and for the first few years, Toyota would struggle in the V8 Supercars with little to no fans and it would be at the back of the pack at every round. Even if it only took 3 years to be competitive enough to win fans, imagine how much money Toyota would lose in those 3 years, especially when the point of the V8 Supercars is to earn buyers, which doesnt happen to losing teams.

[ucwepn]

The Chev 5 litres that holden use as holden motorsport engines are exactly identical in bore and stroke and the degree of the V, to the block that ford uses in V8 supercars, Its all about parity these days. Its an old chev design identcal to the for design that they dug the specs up for and make for V8's and call them holden motorsport engines.

Holdens in V8 supercars are also required to run double wishbone front suspension like the fords have.

So Avesco have litterally pegged the holden back to ford standard to make the racing more exciting.

Ford are behind by a few years at least (maybe 10) because they did not compete in touring car racing in Aus with a falcon after the XE right up until the EB came out.

Don't you think its strange that holden hardly lost a race and then all of a sudden ambrose starts winning?

Now you know why.

[ucwepn]

Mitsubishi are the ones that want in on the V8 Supercars but they cant afford it. Toyota can afford it, but they arent as keen. Lets face it, its a huge gamble for Toyota. They would need to produce a large family sedan car with a V8, and with the gen IV holden engines its a very competitive market that Toyota would struggle to compete in. They would have to design a car and bring in a large, powerful engine that can compete with the Gen IV engine made by GM which is the largest automotive company in the world.

Theres a simple answer to that. Have Class A for V8 supercars, and class B for anyone else who thinks they can keep up with the engines they produce now (turbo or NA 6, whatever they want to run).

[minux]

The Chev 5 litres that holden use as holden motorsport engines are exactly identical in bore and stroke and the degree of the V, to the block that ford uses in V8 supercars, Its all about parity these days. Its an old chev design identcal to the for design that they dug the specs up for and make for V8's and call them holden motorsport engines.

Holdens in V8 supercars are also required to run double wishbone front suspension like the fords have.

So Avesco have litterally pegged the holden back to ford standard to make the racing more exciting.

Ford are behind by a few years at least (maybe 10) because they did not compete in touring car racing in Aus with a falcon after the XE right up until the EB came out.

Don't you think its strange that holden hardly lost a race and then all of a sudden ambrose starts winning?

Now you know why.

Yup Project Blueprint sucks complete ford arse

[Reaper]

Theres a simple answer to that. Have Class A for V8 supercars, and class B for anyone else who thinks they can keep up with the engines they produce now (turbo or NA 6, whatever they want to run).

They have over subscribed grids now. Why would they let other stuff in?

Reaper

[ucwepn]

Not let new teams in but give the current teams options on a new manufacturer like toyota or bitsamissing (mitsubishi) and even Chrysler with the 300c, I'm sure the back markers would be more than interested in getting full factory support etc. IMO the days of group C and even group A were the golden ages of motorsport in Aus. V8's is getting monotonous especially when the fords and holdens are the same under the shells.

[Pretender]

This post may be pointless and off track but thanks for the lesson(no sarcasm intended at all). I was not aware of the rules regarding the motors. That's very interesting. I thought they ran their own motors based on the factory motors ie Gen III etc.
Does anyone know an up to date website that shows specs? Can't seem to find one.
Of note Toyota do produce a 5litre V8 for their Century(? could be the Nissan name) Limo and a 4.4litre and a 4.5litre (as well as a six), but it is irrelevant if they had to use the same motor as the others.

[malscar]

Avesco is currently looking at a common chassis which you can hang the appropriate panels off, ie nascar. One chassis has been built as early as late last year for the teams to comment on.
Can't see Mitsu coming in as the are slowly going broke in Aust. Just look at the Sth Aussie plants. Toyota may do so in years to come but not only are they pouring megabucks into F1, they have just upgraded their USA motorsport program into the main game Nascar ranks. Their V8 would need to be modified as it is I believe quad cam.

[ucwepn]

V8 supercars has been ruined IMO its still a good spectacle because theres nothing quite like 50+ cars leaving the grid at Bathurst but something needs to be done about all this parity crap and they should definately scrap project blueprint. everyday fans don't know the specs of the cars and the rules and they just assume that the holdens are holdens and the fords are fords but they are not what they seem at all.

I believe that by 2010 Avesco should change the rules to reflect the current engines that the manufacturers actually use in their roadcars. and let the development start again from scratch.

We should get a petition going.

[VS Omega]

http://www.petitiononline.com/create_petition.html

[VRSS]

it would be so much more interesting if was how it used to be, the toranas against xy gts, with nissan bluebirds and rx-7s all on the same track.. i think they should let nissan run skylines, mitsubishi run beefed up evo lancers etc, it would make the racing so much more exciting

[Reaper]

it would be so much more interesting if was how it used to be, the toranas against xy gts, with nissan bluebirds and rx-7s all on the same track.. i think they should let nissan run skylines, mitsubishi run beefed up evo lancers etc, it would make the racing so much more exciting

Get real - XY GT's, toranas, bluebirds and rx7's were never on the same track. Many on this forum are way too young to know, but in the late 80's group A tin tops was a loosing proposition. Crowd numbers were very low and tv ratings were even lower. The Australian public voted with their feet - Once the current V8 Supercar type forumla was implemented things very quickly rose to the levels of interest we have today.

Reaper

[VX R8]

The Chev 5 litres that holden use as holden motorsport engines are exactly identical in bore and stroke and the degree of the V, to the block that ford uses in V8 supercars, Its all about parity these days. Its an old chev design identcal to the for design that they dug the specs up for and make for V8's and call them holden motorsport engines.

The reasoning behind it was that the our boys were able to run in excess of 6" rods in their engines due to the higher deck height than of the Fords. Ford boys were not that concerned, as long as they could use the current Nascar (Yates) heads. Our boys did not think this was fair, seeing that the design of the Yates head is far superior to the Chev head. The compromise was made where the Fords run an older style Yates head, GM could use the current spec Nascar head, but would have to adopt the 8.2 deck, mandating a 5.4 inch rod length maximum.

Holdens in V8 supercars are also required to run double wishbone front suspension like the fords have.

So Avesco have litterally pegged the holden back to ford standard to make the racing more exciting

Holden teams wanted the double wishbone setup, they felt the technical superior double long/short set up was an advantage over the ageing MacPherson strut arrangement they had. Aren't Holden dropping the old shitty mac struts in the VE ??


Oh and dont forget, our boys in red use Ford diffs too

And Ambrose won races, because the Falcon finally turned into a race car in the BA and he could drive, glad he's gone, now we can win a few more races

[vztrt]

Oh and dont forget, our boys in red use Ford diffs too

And not just race teams. I know a few guys that run 9inch Ford diffs in their commo's.

And Ambrose won races, because the Falcon finally turned into a race car in the BA and he could drive, glad he's gone, now we can win a few more races

The Falcon finally turned into a race car because Ford decided to pump money into teams like that Holden was doing during the VT,VX days.

[ucwepn]

In 2003 Juzza and I were at the sandown 500 and watched Skaife absolutely flog everyone in the old spec car (pre project blueprint) It was the cars swansong as HRT wheeled out the new spec car for Bathurst and have gone downhill from there. There is a very steep learning curve when you adapt new technology to a car that has never had it before and it will take at least 5-10 more years before we see holden back to how it was. Mcpherson struts were well proven and have always given the commodore superior bite at the front and therefore the ability to "dial out" oversteer to an acceptable level. The AU was reputed to have a very bad case of understeer and could not be corrected before the introduction of the BA.

[greenfoam]

Excuse me if im wrong, but aren't the 5l engines used in the V8 supercars in Holdens actually made by Hemi or something? So it wouldnt be using a ford/holden 5l engine.

It the 302 Chev smallblock, from the Z28 Camaro it was designed to be a high reving motor, The Supercar version might have used the 18 degree Bowtie heads, but I don't think they are legal with the new rules. The Fords use the 302 Ford Windsor, same block that was in the (non Cleveland) versions of the V8 Falcon road cars in the old days all I can say is lucky they don't have to run stock pushrods , neither engine is any better than the Holden 5 liter and no match for a LS1.

I don't even watch V8 supercars anymore, might as well watch Nascar now it's all the same crap , Historic touring cars is where it's at for me

[ucwepn]

Yeah historics are the go, or the grassroots production car series'. Saloon cars is always fun, as is commodore cup.

[VLEATNF6]

Holdens in V8 supercars are also required to run double wishbone front suspension like the fords have.

True because the doule wishbone setup is far superior to anything on the front end of a Holden (except the HSV coupe4). So Holden run this setup otherwise they would be left behind.

So Avesco have litterally pegged the holden back to ford standard to make the racing more exciting.

Where did u pull this statement out from? Ur a@#$? Most likely

Ford are behind by a few years at least (maybe 10) because they did not compete in touring car racing in Aus with a falcon after the XE right up until the EB came out.

Racing is racing. This is another absurd statement you make. The current V8 supercars have hardly any relation to the group A cars of the past. Ford still raced just not always flogging a dead horse like a Falcon AS HOLDEN did with their commodores and got their a@#$% handed too by much lighter, smaller and faster cars.

Don't you think its strange that holden hardly lost a race and then all of a sudden ambrose starts winning?

Now you know why.

Rubish go check your stats again.

[VLEATNF6]

it would be so much more interesting if was how it used to be, the toranas against xy gts, with nissan bluebirds and rx-7s all on the same track.. i think they should let nissan run skylines, mitsubishi run beefed up evo lancers etc, it would make the racing so much more exciting

It's being done to some extent already. Highly modified versions of most cars race in the Japan GT series. Here in Aus we have the Performance car, where again the import stuff (mainly EVO's and STi's) are weight penalised and boost capped because the local stuff like Clubbys and GT's are no match for the Jap terrors. Still makes for some interesting racing.

Also a comment about Group A loosing spectators in the past. The main reason for this was because in reality the only car that could be baught and the public could relate too was a Commodore Group A. Cars like RS500 cosworth, M3, Jags, Skyline GTR's, Turbo RX-7, Turbo Skylines and Volvos (I know there were more), were just either impossible to purchase or just way overpriced and limited in numbers for your average punter. This is why it lost its appeal not because the racing was bad. Group A rules were actually great for car enthusiasts around the world. It forced manufactures to build a lot of the road rockets we enjoy today, and also force them to think outside the sqaure. Without Group A there would never have been cars like GTR, EVO, STi, Cosworth Fords, M3 etc. If it wasnt for this there would be no HSV or FPV today. It's cause of Group A we have these Aussie companies. IF it was left to the Yobbos who didnt understand Group A and now support V8 supercars we would still be living out in the sticks and driving Kingswoods. Aussie have to loose this yobbo mentality of "V8 + RWD = best". Because its not always the case, and this has been proven.

Todays V8 supercars is nothing but a clone racing series. The cars actually relate nothing to the Holden or Ford you buy off the showroom floor. Most Aussies are just too "numbnuts in the brain" to realise it. Thats why they support this for of crap motorsport. You see clowns with their Ford or Holden banners shouting and booing, what idiots. Other than the skin around these cars, theyre actually exactly the same. What a joke Touring car racing has become in this country.