[1991_Vn2nV]

^^^ It does have Magnetic Ride Control Suspension, which very few other cars in the world have. But so does a GTS and Grange and Senator.

And its brakes ARE 380mm as well....front that is. Carbon Ceramic would be good though.

I completely agree with the panels though. Its about time HSV introduced some lightweight panels, it would do a world of good for the performance characteristics of their cars and seperate them substantially from the standard Commodore. I doubt it will be too long before we see it though, its becoming more and more common now days.

Same goes for the clutchless manual.

[BANKS]

Originally Posted by 1991_Vn2nV

^^^ It does have Magnetic Ride Control Suspension, which very few other cars in the world have. But so does a GTS and Grange and Senator.

And its brakes ARE 380mm as well....front that is. Carbon Ceramic would be good though.

I completely agree with the panels though. Its about time HSV introduced some lightweight panels, it would do a world of good for the performance characteristics of their cars and seperate them substantially from the standard Commodore. I doubt it will be too long before we see it though, its becoming more and more common now days.

Same goes for the clutchless manual.

I suppose I should probably read the feature list of the w427 then

Maybe Holden could see it in their hearts and give the ppl factory Bi-Xenon headlights

At least the w427 has a carbon fibre spoiler, they're nearly there lol

You look at cars like the BMW M5 and Mercedes E 63 AMG, which is the w427's international competition there is just no comparison. Fair enough Holden is a young company compared to bmw and merc but to for Holden to play with the big boys it needs to produce something a bit higher class, more refined, more sensible. The E series made a left a huge impression with the boys on top gear but the w427 is just a glorified e-series. It’s not a flagship of a car company that will continue for decades like many European cars have.

Holden have to get out of the mentality of putting bigger engines into cars. The m5 gets the same amount of power from a 5lt v10 as the w427 gets from a 7lt v8.

Mercedes E 63 AMG
Displacement 6,208
Rated output 378rwkw [514bhp]
Rated torque 630/5200 rpm


BMW M5
Cylinders/valves 10/4
Capacity in ccm 4,999
Stroke/bore in mm 75.2/92.0
Max. output in kW (PS) at 1/min 373 (507)/7,750
Max. torque in Nm at 1/min 520/6,100

W427
Capacity (cc) 7008
Power (DIN kW) 375kW* @ 6500rpm
Torque (DIN Nm) 640Nm* @ 5000rpm

Don’t get me wrong and I’ve said it b4 im glad Holden is stepping into this area with the w427. They are trying to send the signal to the international performance car market that we can make cars to, but I don’t know how they can justify the $155,000 price tag when there are far better things out on the market at present. If this car was released globally it would fail, it just wouldn’t sell, maybe in the states but europe would just laugh at it.

[stocky]

ok the power difference isnt that bad between those 3 engines. the mercedes engine seems to have the same power/torque at similar RPM as the w427, and its only 0.8L in difference. the bmw engine is smaller, but makes much less torque at higher rpm

[minux]

Originally Posted by stocky

ok the power difference isnt that bad between those 3 engines. the mercedes engine seems to have the same power/torque at similar RPM as the w427, and its only 0.8L in difference. the bmw engine is smaller, but makes much less torque at higher rpm

erm, the mercedes is making 375 RWKW lol.

[stocky]

damn it i missed the rw lol. thats not 514bhp though?

[1991_Vn2nV]

The thing with HSV though, is they are only given commodores to work with at the end of the day. Im sure with a Merc or BMW, they could do a damn fine job like AMG do.

What HSV need, is a dedicated sports car. Not a commodore, but a car BUILT for what HSV stands for. A REAL sports car, not a family car in HSV dress clothes. But they won't get that unless Holden or GM built something for them to use.

They don't have access to the transmissions or engines that people in this thread seem to think they should be using. I.e. the clutchless manual, where in the GM empire can HSV source one from? Or a small high output V8? Don't blame HSV for working with all they have.

And personally, I don't see the capacity issue. Its cost effective. The Gen IV engines are good on fuel, in a car as heavy as a Commodore they have competitive fuel consumption to a lighter STI or Evo X with engines way smaller. They make the power, the fuel consumption (once tuned especially) is respectable for a high output engine, and they are VERY cheap to produce. 6 grand for an LS3 with 315kw is bloody incredible, small capacity high output engines like you find in the M5, or even in an FPV are VERY expensive in comparison.

[1991_Vn2nV]

Originally Posted by minux

erm, the mercedes is making 375 RWKW lol.

erm, that would be a typo They are 375kw at the flywheel. Since when do Mercedes quote RWKW figures

2008 Mercedes Benz E63 AMG: 0-100km/h in 4.5s
Power 378kW @ 6800rpm

Torque 630Nm @ 5200rpm

Price: $238,956 RRP

MY07 BMW M5: 0-100km/h in 4.7s
Power 373kW @ 7750rpm

Torque 520Nm @ 6100rpm

Price: $241,816 RRP

2008 HSV W427:
Power 375kW @ 6500rpm

Torque 640Nm @ 5000rpm

Price: $155,500 RRP

[stocky]

what they need to do, is take a commodore, and give it to AMG. could get interesting

[minux]

Originally Posted by stocky

what they need to do, is take a commodore, and give it to AMG. could get interesting

The holden chassis and build would die.

[klaw81]

Originally Posted by minux

Holden and Ford wouldnt disappear, they would simply have to make better quality cars for the same price tag. Heck if europe can make these cars at this price, why cant Australians? Our wage average isnt much different...

Holden and Ford wouldn't disappear, but Falcon (and later Commodore) would. Their sector of the car market is shrinking, and their competition would be cheaper by a few thousand dollars each. Falcon isn't exported anywhere (who knows why?) but the Falcon relies on sales numbers to make money. If their market share drops much more, Falcon will be replaced with European and American cars (Mondeo, Taurus etc). It's possible that the Falcon platform could be used in other countries but it wouldn't be the Falcon that Australia is used to. Holden would probably suffer the same fate, but they have exports to prop up sales for a few more years.

Originally Posted by minux

The luxury car tax is a joke, just as any tax is just because you can afford to pay for something. Any tax that works on how expensive something is should be removed, it serves no purpose except to milk money from those that can afford it.

The whole point of tax is to take money away from those who can afford it, and giv it to those who can't. I just think taxing one luxury but not another seems a little strange.

[minux]

Originally Posted by klaw81

The whole point of tax is to take money away from those who can afford it, and giv it to those who can't. I just think taxing one luxury but not another seems a little strange.

Ahh because GM and Ford worldwide can't make cars that will compete with internationals? Thats who the money goes too, Ford Toyota, Holden and Mitsibishi(in the past).

As for taxing people who can afford it, thats stupid. I should not have to pay higher taxes on items because I earn more than others, Its not my fault people aren't well off, nor should I have to pay for them to be given handouts by the government. This is done enough from income taxes.

[Calaber]

Originally Posted by minux

The holden chassis and build would die.

I don't think the chassis etc would "die" but it certainly wouldn't be acceptable to AMG in its present format. Holden deliberately set out to build the VE with an extremely rigid body shell as the first stage in ensuring a higher standard of safety and handling. The Zeta platform (ie suspension) used is a cheaper version (typically) of the more advanced version which was used by GM in the Cadillac (CTSor STS - can't recall the latest one). This suspension is sufficiently advanced to enable substantial development for high performance vehicles.

Earlier in the post, it was suggested that Holden are limited by the engines available within the GM world and this is certainly true, but there are some quite advanced engines available, much smaller than 7 litres, that would be more sensible in today's environment. It annoys me that the G8 was available from day one with variable displacement technology, yet the VE still doesn't have it. Holden have, for a long time, adopted the policy for the Australian market that they can offer a basic vehicle today, and take the next two to three models to bring it up to date, yet the capacity to offer the advanced vehicle exists from day one. (Finally addressing the camber and squat of the rear suspension on the VX II for example - it could /should have been done from day one with the first of the VT's.)

[klaw81]

Originally Posted by minux

Ahh because GM and Ford worldwide can't make cars that will compete with internationals? Thats who the money goes too, Ford Toyota, Holden and Mitsibishi(in the past).

As for taxing people who can afford it, thats stupid. I should not have to pay higher taxes on items because I earn more than others, Its not my fault people aren't well off, nor should I have to pay for them to be given handouts by the government. This is done enough from income taxes.

I agree with you...income tax should be enough to "equalise" people in nearly every situation. GST means that everyone pays equal tax on what they choose to buy.

Ford and Holden can and do make cars that compete well with internationals, but they get some pretty substantial handouts and tariff protections to compete at price parity. I am completely confident that Falcon would, and Commodore does, compete well on the world stage. However, Ford and Holden could NOT compete if their price protections were removed. They just don't sell enough units to make them viable WITHOUT big export earnings.

In regard to those comparing the W427 with E63 and M5 - please be kidding. It might have comparable performance statistics and it might even work ok on a racetrack, but nobody in their right mind is going to go shopping for an M5 and end up buying a W427 instead. You can only polish a turd so much, and at the end of the day, the W427 is a very shiny, carefully polished turd.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by klaw81

I agree with you...income tax should be enough to "equalise" people in nearly every situation. GST means that everyone pays equal tax on what they choose to buy.

Eh??? Why should everybody be "equalised"??? Why would I bother flogging my guts out in a high responsibility, high stress job when I could have a no-stress, rock up to work and put round pegs in square holes, no re-criminations job for the same end result if we were all "equalised"? Broaden the GST tax base to everything and have a flat income tax rate and I'd be much happier.

Ford and Holden can and do make cars that compete well with internationals, but they get some pretty substantial handouts and tariff protections to compete at price parity. I am completely confident that Falcon would, and Commodore does, compete well on the world stage. However, Ford and Holden could NOT compete if their price protections were removed. They just don't sell enough units to make them viable WITHOUT big export earnings.

It actually comes down to economies of scale and labour costs in manufacture. Keep in mind the even Mercedes Benz are moving production to countires such as Nigeria, India, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Iran (!),China amongst others. Even BMW have moved production of the 3 series to South Africa and selected other models to other contries. Cars such as the M5 are also built in far greater numbers. I suspect there are more M5's built each year than the total amount of Commodores.

Reaper

[BANKS]

Originally Posted by klaw81

In regard to those comparing the W427 with E63 and M5 - please be kidding. It might have comparable performance statistics and it might even work ok on a racetrack, but nobody in their right mind is going to go shopping for an M5 and end up buying a W427 instead. You can only polish a turd so much, and at the end of the day, the W427 is a very shiny, carefully polished turd.

pretty sure holden where comparing the omega to the 5 series platform and the HSV's to the M5...?

[klaw81]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Why would I bother flogging my guts out in a high responsibility, high stress job when I could have a no-stress, rock up to work and put round pegs in square holes, no re-criminations job for the same end result if we were all "equalised"? Broaden the GST tax base to everything and have a flat income tax rate and I'd be much happier.

Equalising only goes so far....I don't think anyone's suggesting that everyone in Australia earns the same amount every year. If you have a high responsibility, high stress job and you get paid lots to do it, more power to you. You get paid more, and taxed more according. If I have a job that requires less skill or knowledge, I earn less and I pay less tax. I think that's fair enough, but I don't think a luxury car tax is fair because I could spend the same amount on another luxury (3 months on on a cruise ship, for instance) and I wouldn't be paying the same tax on that.

Originally Posted by Reaper

It actually comes down to economies of scale and labour costs in manufacture. Keep in mind the even Mercedes Benz are moving production to countires such as Nigeria, India, Mexico, South Africa, Thailand, Iran (!),China amongst others. Even BMW have moved production of the 3 series to South Africa and selected other models to other contries. Cars such as the M5 are also built in far greater numbers. I suspect there are more M5's built each year than the total amount of Commodores.

I think that was my point, actually - we just don't have a big enough market to make Falcons and Commodores at a viable scale, and if the tariffs were removed the models would be dropped.

Originally Posted by Banks

pretty sure holden where comparing the omega to the 5 series platform and the HSV's to the M5...?

Holden can do all the comparing they want....I still wouldn't be considering a HSV as an alternative to an M5, and I bet I'm not the only one. It's a gerat benchmark, but do you seriously think 5 Series sales went down when the VE was released?

[BANKS]

Originally Posted by klaw81

Holden can do all the comparing they want....I still wouldn't be considering a HSV as an alternative to an M5, and I bet I'm not the only one. It's a gerat benchmark, but do you seriously think 5 Series sales went down when the VE was released?

Have you read any of my posts at all? Who wouldn’t choose an M5 over a HSV?

We’re arguing the same thing here...

[Joey_21]

but at the end of the day theres only 427 of these being built unlike your mercades,bmw etc yes they have limited editions but theres hundreds and thousands of them made and when u do get the rarer ones are way more expensive then the 155k mark. the 427 are basically a toy, collectors item 4 people 2 have in there trophy cabinet not 2 drive around

[Joey_21]

does anyone actually own one on here????

[Cousin Slow Poke]

Originally Posted by Joey_19

does anyone actually own one on here????

doubt it... though one of the HSV Club members here in Canberra has taken delivery of a white one. to go with his VL Walkinshaw, VZ GTO Coupe and VE GTS.

[MEANVY]

doubt it... though one of the HSV Club members here in Canberra has taken delivery of a white one. to go with his VL Walkinshaw, VZ GTO Coupe and VE GTS.

Why collect hella-expensive cars when stamps are so much cheaper?!

[Cousin Slow Poke]

Cause you can..

[Cousin Slow Poke]

First delivery to a Western Australian customer...

Interesting to notice they left the mount point for the standard air box and didn't do a W427 specific top radiator cover to I reckon.

[minux]

Certainly does not look like 150k worth of car.

[Cousin Slow Poke]

Originally Posted by minux

Certainly does not look like 150k worth of car.

It's not... But if you've got a lazy $150k and like the W427 and want the W427 then you'll buy the W427.