Sparky: Cabling Question

[Rufus®]

Is it ok to run power and phone in a single conduit, or should I run 2 Separate conduits? Distance will be about 20 meters.

Whats the minimum depth for power under the ground?

[Cúl-Báire]

Not a sparky, but... Power and data / comms should be segregated to minimize interference.

[cewing]

i think 300mm is what we try to adhere to at work, but in roof spaces i see them together all the time.

[Garth]

Is it ok to run power and phone in a single conduit, or should I run 2 Separate conduits? Distance will be about 20 meters.

Whats the minimum depth for power under the ground?

you need to run 2 seperate conjuts for power and data, power cant run with phone/data/fiber. need a minimum of 100mm distance between them if running side by side, that distance is different if under ground, power needs to be a minimum of 500mm under ground, in orange conjuit covered by 300mm of earth followed by marking tape, then 200mm of earth again,

[betts]

you need to run 2 seperate conjuts for power and data, power cant run with phone/data/fiber. need a minimum of 100mm distance between them if running side by side, that distance is different if under ground, power needs to be a minimum of 500mm under ground, in orange conjuit covered by 300mm of earth followed by marking tape, then 200mm of earth again,

+1
Hit the nail on the head there

[jakbob]

you need to run 2 seperate conjuts for power and data, power cant run with phone/data/fiber. need a minimum of 100mm distance between them if running side by side, that distance is different if under ground, power needs to be a minimum of 500mm under ground, in orange conjuit covered by 300mm of earth followed by marking tape, then 200mm of earth again,

I believe the regulations do say that, but at work we run power and comms cables all over the place together. Through tight underground conduits, up cable tray, under floors you name it. But, the copper data cable is shielded, and the fibre doesn't give a stuff what you run it next to because its just light going through it, and it doesn't matter how much current your pulling through any nearby cables, it won't effect the fibre.
And I think you'll find phone and data cables all over Australia running right next to power cables without any dramas. There's dodgy shit all over the place. But its best to stick to the regulations if you can, even if its only to cover your own arse.
I personally would bury any power cable at least 700mm down.

[Joey_21]

as long as there segregated u can have them in the same conduit but its easier just to run 2. also AC and DC are not to be put in the same conduit unlesssssssssss you do solar panels which in my case you can do it

[jakbob]

as long as there segregated u can have them in the same conduit but its easier just to run 2. also AC and DC are not to be put in the same conduit unlesssssssssss you do solar panels which in my case you can do it

Thats another thing, we do AC and DC together all the time as well. Theres so much wiring crammed into substations its not funny.

[JBDrifter]

Advice really shouldn't be given online. You need a licence to run cables legally... if you don't have a licence, pay someone who does.

as long as there segregated u can have them in the same conduit but its easier just to run 2. also AC and DC are not to be put in the same conduit unlesssssssssss you do solar panels which in my case you can do it

Curious... how do you segregate cables within the same conduit?

I believe the regulations do say that, but at work we run power and comms cables all over the place together. Through tight underground conduits, up cable tray, under floors you name it. But, the copper data cable is shielded, and the fibre doesn't give a stuff what you run it next to because its just light going through it, and it doesn't matter how much current your pulling through any nearby cables, it won't effect the fibre.
And I think you'll find phone and data cables all over Australia running right next to power cables without any dramas. There's dodgy shit all over the place. But its best to stick to the regulations if you can, even if its only to cover your own arse.
I personally would bury any power cable at least 700mm down.

I know a lot of dodgy stuff is done in the electrical industry... we all see it all the time as sparkies. But you really shouldn't run data/comms cables parallel with power. I'm intrigued to know if you guys test you data jobs properly. I used to do big data jobs that had to be certified, we tested every point and if it didn't pass the test we had to fix it. Usually they just have to be re-terminated, but sometimes it's a kink in the cable or cable running too close to power causing a massive loss in the quality of the signal. In which case we'd have to sometimes re-run cables, which is a huge hassle when the job is almost complete and walls and celings are all sheeted.

[Rufus®]

Advice really shouldn't be given online. You need a licence to run cables legally... if you don't have a licence, pay someone who does.

I'm fully aware of the legalities, and I never said I was doing the cabling, just buying the conduit and getting the trench dug.

Thanks for the info! The trench is 600 deep, will lay the power then storm water and finally the phone. It's only running from house to shed, so shouldn't be too many issues.

[Tsunamix]

It works like this - Current passing through copper will generate a radial magnetic field centred on the copper. You should place your data outside of this magnetic feild to limit crosstalk.

If data has to cross power, cross it at 90 degrees where possible.

Despite what people actually do, power near data is not good. Despite what some say, power near fibre is also bad. Not to the same degree as copper, but PHOTONS of light can be bent by magnetic feilds. Remeber cathode ray tubes ? Ols style tv's ? Magnetic fields were used to ben electron beams, which struck the back of the phosphorescent screen which generated light. While photon's are not electrons, they are still affected although only inifintesimally. If 300 copper power leads crossed a fibre op cable, you might cause enough photon beam distortion to reduce both capacity and quality.

Segregate everything with a physical distance. Screen your data cables, grounding the screen using the drain wire at just ONE end not both (so that any currents collected by the screen are not applied to devices at both ends, causing your reference signal to distort).

DC power usually causes less crosstalk than AC power, but it still causes attentuation in nearby cables, and higher degredation of audio signal. Dont put old style phone cables near speaker or intercom cables. Old style phone has a 32VDC power rail. Digital is only 5VDC and causes less problems.

[JBDrifter]

I'm fully aware of the legalities, and I never said I was doing the cabling, just buying the conduit and getting the trench dug.

Fair enough mate. My post wasn't directed at you, or anybody for that matter. Just a general point that advice shouldn't be given on a public forum for all to see. Good luck with the job

[Joey_21]

Advice really shouldn't be given online. You need a licence to run cables legally... if you don't have a licence, pay someone who does.



Curious... how do you segregate cables within the same conduit?



I know a lot of dodgy stuff is done in the electrical industry... we all see it all the time as sparkies. But you really shouldn't run data/comms cables parallel with power. I'm intrigued to know if you guys test you data jobs properly. I used to do big data jobs that had to be certified, we tested every point and if it didn't pass the test we had to fix it. Usually they just have to be re-terminated, but sometimes it's a kink in the cable or cable running too close to power causing a massive loss in the quality of the signal. In which case we'd have to sometimes re-run cables, which is a huge hassle when the job is almost complete and walls and celings are all sheeted.

to be honest i dont no i think theres somthing u can put through the middle of the conduit but dont take my word on it never done it with my trade we just run them in the same one.

[cracker]

yeah dont run them parallel if you can help it, not always possible.

[one_and_only2004]

just get some shielded phone cable. Problem solvered.

[jakbob]

I know a lot of dodgy stuff is done in the electrical industry... we all see it all the time as sparkies. But you really shouldn't run data/comms cables parallel with power. I'm intrigued to know if you guys test you data jobs properly. I used to do big data jobs that had to be certified, we tested every point and if it didn't pass the test we had to fix it. Usually they just have to be re-terminated, but sometimes it's a kink in the cable or cable running too close to power causing a massive loss in the quality of the signal. In which case we'd have to sometimes re-run cables, which is a huge hassle when the job is almost complete and walls and celings are all sheeted.

As sub station technicians (I'm only an apprentice) we generally only terminate power and control cables, and some 5 pair comms cables, but we run all the cables including fibre and comms cables. The field test and comms guys then come in and test/terminate everything

[INNAWE]

As sub station technicians (I'm only an apprentice) we generally only terminate power and control cables, and some 5 pair comms cables, but we run all the cables including fibre and comms cables. The field test and comms guys then come in and test/terminate everything

Jakbob I have to say you really need to check what you are saying on here as some of the content is not only very BAD tradesmenship but can be very farmfull.
I highly suggest you do not pick up these bad habbits. I know how hard it is to leave them behind. Been there done that. Now I design substations.

Advice really shouldn't be given online. You need a licence to run cables legally... if you don't have a licence, pay someone who does.



Curious... how do you segregate cables within the same conduit?



I know a lot of dodgy stuff is done in the electrical industry... we all see it all the time as sparkies. But you really shouldn't run data/comms cables parallel with power. I'm intrigued to know if you guys test you data jobs properly. I used to do big data jobs that had to be certified, we tested every point and if it didn't pass the test we had to fix it. Usually they just have to be re-terminated, but sometimes it's a kink in the cable or cable running too close to power causing a massive loss in the quality of the signal. In which case we'd have to sometimes re-run cables, which is a huge hassle when the job is almost complete and walls and celings are all sheeted.

Just to let you know, you do not have to have an 'A' or 'E' grade to run or lay cables.

[JBDrifter]

Just to let you know, you do not have to have an 'A' or 'E' grade to run or lay cables.

Without your 'A' grade you need a cablers licence to legally run cables, whether it's power, data, comms, security, CCTV, fibre, anything... doesn't matter. You need at least a cablers licence to do it. There are regs and standards to comform by which most DIY-ers would not be aware of. Hence it being illegal to do so without a licence.

Only other time you are allowed is if you are an apprentice or B grade being supervised by a licenced electrician.


I support your advice to jakbob. Bad habits are so easy to pick up.

[Garth]

basicaly i think that the young apprentice needs to refer back to his as3000/2007 and look at segregation. then he can look at the energex requirements (local authority in south east qld) for the requirements of electricity distribution at substation level. i would very interested in the name of the company you work for, cause if they do the work as you state, they are cowboys and need to be removed from the industry all together.


in brisbane, anyone can lay the conjuits, its' upto the electrician who is installing the cable to ensure they are at the right depth and the right amount of segregation has been maintained.

[Joey_21]

basicaly i think that the young apprentice needs to refer back to his as3000/2007 and look at segregation. then he can look at the energex requirements (local authority in south east qld) for the requirements of electricity distribution at substation level. i would very interested in the name of the company you work for, cause if they do the work as you state, they are cowboys and need to be removed from the industry all together.


in brisbane, anyone can lay the conjuits, its' upto the electrician who is installing the cable to ensure they are at the right depth and the right amount of segregation has been maintained.

who you referring to just to clear things up.

[Sabbath']

I used to love getting up in roof spaces and seeing sparkies who had just wrapped the power around our data connections until they needed to drop them off, dodgy bastards.

[rickybobby]

it's only a few sparks or a little jolt
trial and error
she'll be right

[Joey_21]

lol our breakers caught on fire today all because of the wrong polarity dc power is very dangerous lol went up in 1-2 seconds and cant be stopped unless its turned off from the isolater up on top of the roof well we didnt have time to get the ladder off and climb up so its unscrew the dc breaker and pull the the wire out which causes a massive ark and catches fire lol we had no other choice. Some A grades need to have there licened checked i think.

[jakbob]

Jakbob I have to say you really need to check what you are saying on here as some of the content is not only very BAD tradesmenship but can be very farmfull.
I highly suggest you do not pick up these bad habbits. I know how hard it is to leave them behind. Been there done that. Now I design substations.

basicaly i think that the young apprentice needs to refer back to his as3000/2007 and look at segregation. then he can look at the energex requirements (local authority in south east qld) for the requirements of electricity distribution at substation level. i would very interested in the name of the company you work for, cause if they do the work as you state, they are cowboys and need to be removed from the industry all together.

I'm beginning to wish I'd kept my big mouth shut. It seems I've opened the proverbial can of worms.
I should have been more clear; I am not a substation technician apprentice, I am an electrical fitter mechanic apprentice. The apprenticeship is structured such that I am rotated through all the different aspects of the company. I just happen to be enjoying a particularly long stint in substations. I haven't been stuck with just the one tradesman either, I've worked with half a dozen at least just in substations. You could call them a lot of things, but not bad tradesmen and cowboys. This company is bent on safety and quality of work - bad tradies and cowboys don't fit in very well. They are very knowledgeable blokes and very good at what they do. The only bad habits I've picked up from them is my eating habits.
The work we do in substations is largely done according to the drawings given to us by the designers. Most deviations from the design are due to stuff ups on the designers' behalf. And there are a lot of those stuff ups. All copper data cables are shielded and tested thoroughly. All the multimode plastic fibre optic cables are run in flexible or rigid 20 or 25mm conduit. Everything is tested thoroughly.
Also, the young apprentice just had a look in his AS3000, but was not able to find anything regarding segregation of data and power cables. He thinks maybe he just can't see the forest for the trees, and would like for someone to specify where in the AS3000 this information can be found. He isn't worried about the energex requirements for electricity distribution at substation level however as he works in energex substations and knows they are built to satisfy said requirements.
Sorry to hijack the thread a bit. Got a bit out of hand

[one_and_only2004]

3.9.8 talks about all of that. Took me 3mins...