The E10 debate

[MikeCuzzy]

Found this report after digging through government sites, seems they did a feasibility study into E10. IT seems that any car with a carburettor CANNOT use E10 and that even new cars with direct injection suffer problems.

Seems many of us were right to avoid E10 from the get go.

http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosp...els-report.pdf

It's pretty wordy, but is insightful.

[TVR-190]

oh god not this again.....

I run E10 in the VP, no noticeable performance / economy difference

[VR38]

I run E10 in the VP, no noticeable performance / economy difference yet...

Edited for clarification.

[Maxxiz]

It more has long term effects on the engine, largely due to the fact that the ethanol attracts water vapour, when its getting transported in trucks, they must carry less E10 than regular ULP because of this. Also there would be an ecconomy difference, E10 provides less energy than ULP.

[VR38]

Why do you think it states not for use in air craft etc, it is not good stuff.
As above, gyroscopic and corrosive.

[Darren_L]

E10 runs fine in my Ford Courier ute (EFI), but it chews through it noticeably quicker than unleaded (definitely not my imagination, I've done my own consumption tests)
I once tried a tank in my motorbike (out of curiosity), and it kept stalling at idle

[old mate]

when i bought my motorbike (10 months old with 700km on the clock) the previous owner had run 2 tanks of e10 through it. it was running like crap so i pulled the carby apart and it was filled with this goo like stuff. everything was clogged. cleaned it all out and cleaned the tank out and after a while it came good.

never touched it again.

[Macca86]

E10 is shit. Had heaps of problems with it in new Mazdas at my work. Soon as they switch to premium, no problems whatsoever
And Darren, yeah E10 is utter crap for bikes. Not they I know why anyone would even bother to do it other then just to try it once like you did, when your tank only holds 15-18L's whats the point in filling with a lower quality fuel just to save $1 per tankfull :S lol

[GenReaper]

Just open that PDF and have a look at the deposit on the valves on page 93.

If you want the inside of your motor looking like that then go for it but ill stick to Premium unleaded thanks.

Also valves are not rotating in their seat as shown by the spray pattern of the injectors, also very bad for engine.

[Swordsy]

Can't run anything under 95 in my VT, it starts to ping. But having a remapped ecu will do that.

[Calaber]

You guys who are anti-ethanol are going to have fun when there is no other choice available. Standard 91 unleaded is being gradually replaced by an ethanol blend and increased blends up to E85 will become more widespread. Holden has an E85 V6 which is to be released shortly. It's ok to say "I'll stick with premium" but for how long will premium remain unadulterated?

I use E10 and my economy and smoothness of running is definitely NOT affected. I suspect that, as I use it regularly, and don't bother with straight 91 unleaded, the PCM or ECU (whichever controls the fuel system) has adapted to the E10 and is happy to run with it. I drove from Wyong on the NSW Central Coast to Stanthorpe in Qld on the one tank fill (standard tank, not a long range one) and the trip computer indicated I still had 120km left. The gauge indicated that I still had about 1/8th of a tank remaining.

[GenReaper]

You guys who are anti-ethanol are going to have fun when there is no other choice available. Standard 91 unleaded is being gradually replaced by an ethanol blend and increased blends up to E85 will become more widespread. Holden has an E85 V6 which is to be released shortly. It's ok to say "I'll stick with premium" but for how long will premium remain unadulterated?

I use E10 and my economy and smoothness of running is definitely NOT affected. I suspect that, as I use it regularly, and don't bother with straight 91 unleaded, the PCM or ECU (whichever controls the fuel system) has adapted to the E10 and is happy to run with it. I drove from Wyong on the NSW Central Coast to Stanthorpe in Qld on the one tank fill (standard tank, not a long range one) and the trip computer indicated I still had 120km left. The gauge indicated that I still had about 1/8th of a tank remaining.

Remind me to quote you on that when it start to pre detonate due to carbon deposits and all your fuel lines and injector seals fail and your car catches on fire.
+ all the other damage it does.

Sure it runs good but pull you engine down and have a look inside of it after 50,000kms and tell me what you see.

And when your rings are jammed in your pistons and you loose compression and score your bores then tell me how good it is.

I could go on forever about how crap it is but seems your a fan boy, good luck to you in the future

Premium will still be available and thats what ill be using.

Anything Ethanol will get worse fuel ecconomy and thats a gimme, so dont go saying its ecconomical cause your only pulling your own pudd.

[MikeCuzzy]

To clarify my position, I am not anti-enthanol per se, I am just pointing out that it is a VERY bad idea to run it in an injection system not designed for it. If I had the money for a VE with SIDI that runs E85, I would run it with that. However most current cars, can't run it.

Also, if you read the pdf, most cars got similar economy with E10, it just ate the engine over time.

@GenReaper
Yeah, that

[Calaber]

Remind me to quote you on that when it start to pre detonate due to carbon deposits and all your fuel lines and injector seals fail and your car catches on fire.
+ all the other damage it does.

Sure it runs good but pull you engine down and have a look inside of it after 50,000kms and tell me what you see.

And when your rings are jammed in your pistons and you loose compression and score your bores then tell me how good it is.

I could go on forever about how crap it is but seems your a fan boy, good luck to you in the future

Premium will still be available and thats what ill be using.

Anything Ethanol will get worse fuel ecconomy and thats a gimme, so dont go saying its ecconomical cause your only pulling your own pudd.

No need to get nasty. I won't be pulling my car down to rebuild it - I'm quite happy to drive it till it drops. By then, it won't be worth a cracker anyway. And I don't car tuppence if you don't believe my economy - I was there, I know what I got and I don't need to lie about it or make stupid claims like so many adolescents on this forum seem to so you toodle off and jerk your gherkin in some dark lane.

[VR_Acclaim]

Remind me to quote you on that when it start to pre detonate due to carbon deposits and all your fuel lines and injector seals fail and your car catches on fire.
+ all the other damage it does.

Sure it runs good but pull you engine down and have a look inside of it after 50,000kms and tell me what you see.

And when your rings are jammed in your pistons and you loose compression and score your bores then tell me how good it is.

I could go on forever about how crap it is but seems your a fan boy, good luck to you in the future

Premium will still be available and thats what ill be using.

Anything Ethanol will get worse fuel ecconomy and thats a gimme, so dont go saying its ecconomical cause your only pulling your own pudd.

sorry but my vr get 600kms out of e10 being mistreatead and on vpower it gets 440 tops so better economy i dont think so ome car might just run better on it then others,, and just because some people have bad experiences, doesnt mean we all do

[GenReaper]

Ethanol based cars run lean unless tuned propperly.
So to tune it propperly you need to richen it up.
Richen it up = use more petrol.

Ask any engine tuner.

Shell fuel is crap anyway, i wouldnt run my lawn mower on it.

[pai834]

+1 on the shell fuel. Horrid stuff.

[GenReaper]

E85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only cars that can benifit are turbocharged cars.
You average Joe Blo is not going to get better ecconomy than Premium fuel.

[Demonica]

Until they can 100% prove that it won't affect my engine I wouldn't touch the crap if it was free. There has been a lot of debate over the years over whether or not it is safe for your engine and I'd have to say the negatives on E10 far outweigh the positives. Anyway E10 is only a little cheaper than unleaded and it really isn't worth running the risk of screwing your engine just to save a few $$$ at the bowser.

[Swordsy]

sorry but my vr get 600kms out of e10 being mistreatead and on vpower it gets 440 tops so better economy i dont think so ome car might just run better on it then others,, and just because some people have bad experiences, doesnt mean we all do

What I found with 98 in my VS when i had it was that it used more fuel than 91 or 95. I found the best economy on a stock ecotec is 95. Used a bit less but cost the same as 91 per km.

If you want to run on flowers, go and buy a biodiesel combi

[CSP]

Debate? There is no debate. E10 is sh!t!!! End of story.

[Macca86]

CSP covered it. /debate. LOL
But yeah I whole heartedly agree with everything Reaper said. Yeah for the everyday person who never looks under their bonnet or does stuff to their own engine, yeah you will probably love E10 coz it saves u that extra $5 a week at the bowser. For the rest of us that actually work on our cars and get to see the insides of them and the results of running them on pure shit (as reaper pointed out), we will continue to use proper fuel.

[Calaber]

Gees, there's a lot of assumptions here. Where do you get the idea I never look under the bonnet or do any of my own work on the car? I've done my own work on my cars for forty years and only thing I have never undertaken is an auto trans rebuild. And I'd be willing to guarantee I've done a lot more than you in that time, including ground-up restorations and modifications. That includes complete engine , transmission, brakes, bodywork, interior, paint, the lot. I don't choose E10 because it "saves me 5 cents per litre", I do so because it's easier to come by in my area and because the car runs well on it. If it has an adverse affect on the engine in the long run, I won't be concerned because the car will be too old to worry about.

You blokes with your all-alloy 5.7 SS's might consider rear wheel horsepower is the most important thing in the world but it sure aint to me. I didn't criticise you for what you believed - I just said you will have fun when unadulterated fuel is no longer available and that time will come. So don't try kicking sand in my face - it doesn't work.

[MikeCuzzy]

If it has an adverse affect on the engine in the long run, I won't be concerned because the car will be too old to worry about.

You blokes with your all-alloy 5.7 SS's might consider rear wheel horsepower is the most important thing in the world but it sure aint to me. I didn't criticise you for what you believed - I just said you will have fun when unadulterated fuel is no longer available and that time will come. So don't try kicking sand in my face - it doesn't work.

Speaking of the odd assumption.
There is a reason my car is essentially original and that is it was cared for over many years, clearly you have far more first hand knowledge about cars than I. But that doesn't negate the evidence presented.
All I was saying is that with injection systems that are designed for Unleaded Petrol (i.e. most Commodores) E10 has a detrimental effect.

Also I am not driving an "all-alloy 5.7 SS" and I don't consider "rear wheel horsepower... the most important thing", I drive a 98 VT Exec with a 3.8 V6 with 423,000Km and stock 15 inch steel wheels. What matters to me is keeping the old family car running as efficiently as possible. And when they remove 91 from stations, I will simply upgrade to 95/98.

I am 19 and I know full well that my knowledge can be best described as limited, but I found hard evidence that E10 is damaging to cars that were not designed for it, so I posted the link hoping to close the issue somewhat. If people, after reading the report, believe that the risk of engine damage in perhaps 2-4 years of driving is acceptable with the idea of buying a newer car- by all means that is their right. But if you wish to maintain you car for the long term, as I do, E10 is not the way to go about it.

[Calaber]

Speaking of the odd assumption.
There is a reason my car is essentially original and that is it was cared for over many years, clearly you have far more first hand knowledge about cars than I. But that doesn't negate the evidence presented.
All I was saying is that with injection systems that are designed for Unleaded Petrol (i.e. most Commodores) E10 has a detrimental effect.

Also I am not driving an "all-alloy 5.7 SS" and I don't consider "rear wheel horsepower... the most important thing", I drive a 98 VT Exec with a 3.8 V6 with 423,000Km and stock 15 inch steel wheels. What matters to me is keeping the old family car running as efficiently as possible. And when they remove 91 from stations, I will simply upgrade to 95/98.

I am 19 and I know full well that my knowledge can be best described as limited, but I found hard evidence that E10 is damaging to cars that were not designed for it, so I posted the link hoping to close the issue somewhat. If people, after reading the report, believe that the risk of engine damage in perhaps 2-4 years of driving is acceptable with the idea of buying a newer car- by all means that is their right. But if you wish to maintain you car for the long term, as I do, E10 is not the way to go about it.

Mike

I think you have interpreted my message as being aimed at you. It wasn't, nlot by a long shot. It was aimed at Macca86. Sorry if it looked like I was shooting at you.