Interesting Picture (Solar Power)

[CSP]

Now I'm not posting this as part of the climate change / global warming debate so please don't go off about all this in this thread. This is a thread specifically about solar power as a bloody good option for the future. Sure, we need the technology to advance and for the panels to become easier and cheaper to make, but I'm a firm believer that the most abundant source of energy in our solar system (our star, called the Sun) will eventually become our best and most used "natural" resource.

I find it very interesting that the surface area required to be covered in solar panels to power the entire planet is actually very small and wouldn't even need to be seen by humans!



Yes I know there's not enough panels in existence to do it, even taking into account ever panel ever made in the history of solar panels. But imagine if this eventuated...

[cracker]

your joking me, its only the size of bass straight!

solar power is pathetic at best

[nemesis_adrasteia]

i agree CSP. solar power will be a big part of the future, once the t.echnology has advanced some more hope fully more people will see it as a viable option.

[CSP]

your joking me, its only the size of bass straight!

solar power is pathetic at best

Clearly, what I was trying to say is beyond you...

[minux]

So CSP, if it is so great, how does one make solar panels without using rare earth materials and how does one provide base load electricity when it is not sunny for days on end?

Solar is an interim measure for top up power, not for baseload that is "eco friendly".

[CSP]

So CSP, if it is so great, how does one make solar panels without using rare earth materials and how does one provide base load electricity when it is not sunny for days on end?

Solar is an interim measure for top up power, not for baseload that is "eco friendly".

Another one who doesn't get what I was saying...

READ!!!!!

we need the technology to advance and for the panels to become easier and cheaper to make

Yes I know there's not enough panels in existence to do it, even taking into account ever panel ever made in the history of solar panels. But imagine if this eventuated...

And then ponder what it COULD be like once technology advances... This is not about saying is currently a viable option.

[Rhin0o8]

So CSP, if it is so great, how does one make solar panels without using rare earth materials and how does one provide base load electricity when it is not sunny for days on end?

Solar is an interim measure for top up power, not for baseload that is "eco friendly".

@ OP, What minux is trying to get across is the rare materials used to produce that many solar panels may not or may never be available.

You need resources aswell as technology to build solar panels efficiently

To my point now, What about terrorism. haveing majority of a power source generated in one small area is an easy target to take out.

You say one area will power the whole of Europe and Nth Africa... One attack and that region is crippled without a power source

[CSP]

Ah forget it...

/end thread

[Coast_Calais]

To my point now, What about terrorism. haveing majority of a power source generated in one small area is an easy target to take out.

You say one area will power the whole of Europe and Nth Africa... One attack and that region is crippled without a power source

,

you're kidding right? pretty sure any other type of power plant is just as susceptible to terrorism. (coal, gas, wind, hydro, thermal, tidal, nuclear, ect ect)

[Rhin0o8]

,

you're kidding right? pretty sure any other type of power plant is just as susceptible to terrorism. (coal, gas, wind, hydro, thermal, tidal, nuclear, ect ect)

Very True,
Coal, Gas etc etc are scattered. It the geological aspect
My point being the location of one "main" power source ie powering the whole of Europe and Nth Africa.

[minux]

,

you're kidding right? pretty sure any other type of power plant is just as susceptible to terrorism. (coal, gas, wind, hydro, thermal, tidal, nuclear, ect ect)

Yes, but there are multiple plants. So it would take multiple attacks. One attack on a solar farm and buh bye entire country.

[Darren_L]

@ OP, What minux is trying to get across is the rare materials used to produce that many solar panels may not or may never be available.

You need resources aswell as technology to build solar panels efficiently

To my point now, What about terrorism. haveing majority of a power source generated in one small area is an easy target to take out.

You say one area will power the whole of Europe and Nth Africa... One attack and that region is crippled without a power source

I don't think CSP or the diagram above is intended to suggest all the solar cells be located in one central location for each nation. The diagram is simply intended to give a visual idea of the total surface area required to generate each nations power usage. Obviously in practice, the cells would be distributed in mutiple smaller clusters across each nation so it wouldn't be any more of a terrorist target than our current power stations.

I'm actually quite impressed by the diagram. Solar cells are becoming more efficient almost every year that passes. If everyone has solar cells fitted to their houses, it would reduce significantly our dependance on coal powered stations. Of course, until a system can be developed to store energy, then we will always need conventional power stations, but even if households/buildings can generate the majority of their own power during daylight hours, it's got make a big impact on how much energy needs to be generated by our powerstations.

[UFO]

Solar power is the future... but not in massive power plant setups like proposed above.

The power loss in transmitting electricity over long distances is immense.

It should be mandatory for everyone to solar panels on their roof... absolutely no reason why we need to burn coal to boil water to create steam to turn a turbine.... bloody rediculous old fashioned thinking.
Government loans for everybody to get solar without breaking the bank. Or better yet, maybe the banks and their $6 billion profits and give us cheap loans. They dont have to lose money.... just dont 'make' money from it.

A massive change in thinking is required, and the government needs to stop listening to polls and lobbiests and just do the right thing. We need to be the ones in history that actually make a difference, not be some cliff note to the ones that "couldve, but didnt do shit".

[minux]

Solar power is the future... but not in massive power plant setups like proposed above.

The power loss in transmitting electricity over long distances is immense.

Or better yet, maybe the banks and their $6 billion profits and give us cheap loans. They dont have to lose money.... just dont 'make' money from it.

HAHAHAH you are joking yeah? Why would we take profits from a company that has a profit margin of under 10%?

I would rather target these sparkies etc that are ripping people blind and have a profit margin of 50%+. Seriously....the amount of profits is hardly relevant...profit margin is. I find it amazing people are happy for small business to have a large profit margin yet are unhappy to have a healthy banking sector with a less than 10% margin.

[woteva]

When they make solar panels that don't stick out so everyone can see them, I will be the first in-line to cover my whole roof.

[UFO]

HAHAHAH you are joking yeah? Why would we take profits from a company that has a profit margin of under 10%?

I would rather target these sparkies etc that are ripping people blind and have a profit margin of 50%+. Seriously....the amount of profits is hardly relevant...profit margin is. I find it amazing people are happy for small business to have a large profit margin yet are unhappy to have a healthy banking sector with a less than 10% margin.

Of course its relevant mate!!!!

I didnt say they should fund it for free and actually lose money... they have the funding capabilities that GREATLY exceed small business and individuals. Provide wholesale loans that are guaranteed by the Government, so everyone can get onboard.
This carbon credit crap is just a licence for those that polute, to polute more. Get cheap funding to make a huge difference NOW... but bloody 5% for 2050 or something pointless like that.

And you hit the nail right on the head.... BIG BUSINESS is who should be driving this because they can access the right funding. Doesnt have to cost them anything.

[UFO]

When they make solar panels that don't stick out so everyone can see them, I will be the first in-line to cover my whole roof.

Yeah, because driving around in a machine that pumps out poison gas is much nicer.
Everyone does it mate, so its accepted. It aint pretty, but its the norm.
If everyone had solar, it would also be accepted. It aint pretty, but its the norm.

[delcowizzid]

the polution that is generated making solar panels is far worse than the coal being used for power

[UFO]

the polution that is generated making solar panels is far worse than the coal being used for power

WRONG. Very wrong.

Solar Panel Efficiency

[Pete_perth]

Renewable energy, espeically solar as an energy source is based on the "Decentralisation of Power" model. Which states if you can generate the bulk of your power needs by renewable sources directly where it is required (on top of your home, office etc), then you can suppliment the rest from non-renewables. We use most of our electricity during the day, if we can generate the bulk of it from renewables then we won't need as much coal, gas etc as most power generated in the evenings is wasted.

I tend to agree with the comment above that the diagram represents how much surface area is needed to power the global demand for energy by solar - which is pretty impressive.

Solar Panels pay back their embodied energy (the energy that it took to make them in the fist place) within 3 years for the crystalline type of panels and 2 years for the amorphous panels.

[soop]

The whole arguement is based on them being able to come up with some wonder technology.

Whats with people trying to reinvent the wheel?

Petrol causes polution, lets use electricity (derp). Oh wait, electric cars blow scrot, lets spend billions developing a hydrogen fuel cell. We could use an alternate alcohol based fuel in conjuction with current technology but... nahhh.

We have the ability to make electricity with current technology. We just need a thermal source to boil water.
There's a dirty big furnace under our feet that runs 24/7 whether we like it or not. Is that just too conveniant for us or what?

[torch]

Solar power is the future... but not in massive power plant setups like proposed above.

The power loss in transmitting electricity over long distances is immense.

It should be mandatory for everyone to solar panels on their roof... absolutely no reason why we need to burn coal to boil water to create steam to turn a turbine.... bloody rediculous old fashioned thinking.
Government loans for everybody to get solar without breaking the bank. ".[/U]

Sorry I tend to disagree. Installing photovoltaic cells on the rooftop of every dwelling on the country is a labour intensive and expensive exercise in both labour and equipment (every house needs a converter etc) There could be argued a case for it in overcrowded european nations, but in Australia the land occupied by solar installations wouldnt be an issue. In Australia at least the efficiency of solar cells(the % of solar energy converted to electical energy) isnt the issue, its really just how much its costs per kWh.
Certainly, solar hot water heaters should be installed locally on roofs as they are 4 times more energy efficient at heating water than photovoltaic or solar thermal could be.

Even in Australia where the sunlight falls and where it doesnt is very important in choosing a solar site, there are rainbelts that receive far less than the average and areas such as the riverena which receive well above average days of sunlight, placing expensive resources on the roofs of houses in rain belts is not using resources wisely.

while there is little difference between the energy efficiency of solar thermal and photovoltaic installations, solar thermal plants are currently cheaper per kW of electricity than photovoltaics. Resources do have to be considered and at a guess the resources needed to make effective mirrors wont be in as short as supply as those needed for photovoltaics, or indeed need as much energy to create them in the 1st place.
A large water supply is also no longer a requirement for solar thermal ;Time to shine for CSIRO’s new solar thermal field (Audio), so they can be placed in remote desert locations.

Its good to see people thinking "outside of the box", though there hasnt been much discussion about how research is going with the problem of how to harness the energy for when the sun dont shine.

[Richard Moss]

how does one provide base load electricity when it is not sunny for days on end?

Try a little lateral thinking and you can come up with ideas such as:

Put a solar plant near the coast in a sunny area (e.g. North Africa, California, southern Spain).
Use the power to "crack" seawater into hydrogen and oxygen.
Store them for use on dull days or transport the hydrogen (in clean, hydrogen powered transports) and use it in places that aren't sunny.

The combustion products are, of course, just water. Whilst there would be some losses in the transport system there are already - for example, where does Australia's petrol and diesel come from? Spain gets its gas sent by ship from Algeria. etc. etc.

As for rooftop solar cells, it's not just electricity that can be generated. Even in the UK you can get a significant reduction on your water heating bills by using rooftop heat exchangers. The payback time for recouping the cost of installation is between 5 and 10 years so it's worth doing for most people. If EVERY house had it done then you wouldn't lose out when you move.

[Drawnnite]

lets hope solar panels in the future are how mobile phones are now. compact, easy to use and work very well, and arent expensive.
and that area really isnt that big, just think of the area if every house/building in the world had just 1 2x2m solar panel on the roof.

[Jesterarts]

For those going on about the efficiency of solar panels and the required resources to produce them.

New twist on solar cell design › News in Science (ABC Science)

Solar technology is still in it's early life, therehasn't been a high demand fro it in recent years. Now as demand grows, the technological developments are speeding up.

For those going on about terrorist attacks on a solar plant, read the diagram property:

These 19 contiguous areas show roughly what would be a reasonable responsibility for various parts of the world. The would be further devided many times, the more the better to reach a diversified infrastructure that localizes as much as possible.

The areas on the diagrams are a visual representation and not an indication of location. It clearly states the solar systems would be localized and not centralized.

This ties in quite nicely with what I've said in the political thread. Put solar panels on to of every building. That would easily handle 25% of the required area. THe other 75% could be handled by purpose build localised solar plants with integrated storage facilities.

I was sketchy about solar too. But it's a feasible option. The system @ the future in-laws runs the meter backwards using the traditional 17% efficient solar panels during the day WITH aircon on. Imagine what it would do using this new technology.