horsepower for clevo 351?

[blaze]

thinkin of investing in a XD 351 goz they go like tha wind n sick 1s look tuff as ****.. any know how mcuh power they put out

[JD]

according to this 300BHP
The Ford 351 Windsor & Cleveland Engine Specs

[Wombat]

You ain't gonna like this....

Those figures on the link do show up to 300hp, but there is no way on Gods green earth that a standard Clevo 351 in an XD is going to put out that.
The horrifying truth is that, because of increasing anti-pollution which really knocked all the V8's around back then, that a VS with a stock Ecotec will just about walk away from a stock 351 XD-XE Falcon.
I have a Wheels magazine with the last of the 351 Fairmont ESP Ghia's in it, up against a VH SS Commodore. The 351 only puts out a measly 170-odd kw...but don;t think the SS was anything to crow about...it only put out about 200kw from the 308 V8 at the time, and that was "modified".
Oh yes, the torque was great, but power was waaaaay down on the glory days of the XY GT and similar cars.
Just look at the column on the far right showing the ordinary and extremely common 2V 351 (good luck finding a 4V nowadays...a good 4V engine would probably cost as much as a good complete XD Falcon...)... it only put out 250hp in 1969-1970, and a pitiful 177hp in 1971 to 1973...now, realise that this was BEFORE the big anti-pollution laws in 1976, which lowered the power even more, and you know what I'm talking about...sad isn't it... and a bigger shock when you translate those pitiful horsepower figures into kilowatts...remember what I said about a stock Ecotec...

If you are prepared to mod it, there should still be guys around who know thier ways around a 650 Holley and some head and cam work...whack a Top Loader behind it and give it a good paintjob with some nice rims, and you'll have a great classic car which still looks the goods.

...just don't expect much from a bog standard anti-pollution-equipped 351, that's all. (especially fuel economy...yikes!)
Most car magazines, after the anti-pollution laws of '76, even stopped quoting power and economy figures...the manufacturers knew they had knobbled great cars with crap that possibly made them a little cleaner, but knocked around the fuel economy and power output something shocking.

[minux]

You could be really different and make an awesome mod.

351 clev in the front of the car but because those ugly 3 tonne tanks are symmetrical you could go a nice boss setup in the rear, make it all wheel drive, steering wheel on each end and no one will ever know!!!

[bezz]

yea wouldnt really be buyin something like that to go fast... cars like that should just be a cruiser. I bet most new 4cyl buzzboxes could outperform the 289 clev in my xr... i still know what i'd rather be driving

[bangers]

do you want to know a cheap trick to getting more power? put 302 rods in it, no word of a lie. i know a bloke who builds performance engines (he just did a twin turbo 5 litre VL) and he can build a motor for those for less than $5000 that will put out @600BHP with around 800foot/pound of torque (he's already done one in a ZJ fairlane). he tried talking me into doing it.

[PaRaDoX]

welll, over the last 3 months we've had a range of diffrent fords at my house, including a 1970 windsor 302 in a ZC, that was mildly worked and felt like a good 150rwkw (big carby+inlet)

either way we got rid of that and now we have a clevland 302 in a XE ute, i drove that and it felt quicker altho being stock probbly because the cars lighter, either way the stock 302 feels like 200hp @ fly sooooo i doubt the 50 cubic inches gives the engine another 100hp, soo i reckon 250hp max for the 351, id reccomend a twin exhust if you do tho, the zc we had sounded insane, just 1 muffler on each exhust sounds absolutely insane

but yeah 250hp would be my estimate, either way its not going to be stupid powerful but enough to give you a good kick in the balls

[Wombat]

There is another option if you can bear to do without a V8...

My son and I are sketching out a couple of plans for a project we'd like to do...one option is a Valiant Charger, but they are fetching rediculous prices, and it isn't really preferred at the moment.
The other is a bit more applicable to what you are doing. You can actually get a good solid mid-60's Mustang which needs a paint job without motor or box for well under $20,000...combine this with an early BA Falcon twin-cam six out of an XR6 with either the six speed manual or five speed auto...should be plenty around at wreckers by now...combine the two and mix well.

Failing that, a well done up XD Falcon with a V8 out of a new BA Falcon wouldn't be a bad thing either...

...or you could be really different and slap in a 6 liter LS2 out of a Commodore...that'd certainly raise a few eyebrows...

[blaze]

mmmm the only thinhg i wouldnt like bout the 351 is a 5.8L would like to drink a lot of fuel. paradox how bad was it?

[pandaman]

yea wouldnt really be buyin something like that to go fast... cars like that should just be a cruiser. I bet most new 4cyl buzzboxes could outperform the 289 clev in my xr... i still know what i'd rather be driving

Just to nitpick, the 289 in your XR would be a windsor wouldn't it? Unless you've done something very strange with a cleveland block.

[bezz]

Just to nitpick, the 289 in your XR would be a windsor wouldn't it? Unless you've done something very strange with a cleveland block.

ah yes bit of a mix up there, XRs had a 289 Windsor. When we bought it we were told it was a cleveland engine, however on closer inspection its definitely a 302 Windsor (XT engine). All good for us as we are building an XT GT replica

[Wombat]

Fuel economy...hmm...not really a word I recall being used in connection with a 351, or any V8 for that matter, back in the late seventies and early eighties...
Big bent eights, especially post-July 1976 when ADR-27A came in (the birth of anti-pollution), are notoriously bad on fuel...I am talking sometimes nearly a third worse after anti pollution gear was fitted.
Also, as I said, the power figures were mysteriously dropped from nearly all car magazines in 1977...I don;t even think brochures from dealerships mentioned the horsepower figures.

From what I can recall, a standard 351 in good tune, in something like an XC or XD Falcon, should return something like 10 to 14mpg around town, maybe 18 on the highway if you drive it nicely. Stick a clunky old 3 speed auto behind it, and you're looking at less.

Current V8's like the 6 liter LS2 get rediculous fuel economy figures on the highway (equal to some 4 cylinders of the seventies) because of super efficient EFI systems and gearboxes with 18 overdrive ratios (OK, I exaggerate a bit...). Stick a big four barrel carby on that LS2, and back it with a 3 speed auto with 1:1 ratio in "Drive" and you're fuel economy would drop like a stone back to the bad old days.

If I was building an XD with a 351, and I think you mentioned you weren't out for outright speed, I'd stick with a 2V basic engine, get the heads shaved, ported and polished, and valves and guides set up for unleaded, mild cam, compression ratio nothing much above about 9:1, lightened flywheel. Carby only needs to be (using the CFM calculations of cubic capacity x maximum rpm you will use (be honest) divided by the constant figure 3456) something like a 500 Holley two barrel or maybe a 650 four barrel (don't let anyone talk you into a double-pumper 650...seriously...some guys will have you believe you MUST have a double-pumper. No, you don't.) on a port-matched manifold. Make sure you find someone who knows about jetting and power valve sizes or have a look on Holley's website for advice...it can be a nightmare if someone gets it all wrong, and it;s a bastard to get right again. Set of extractors, twin 2-1/2" system with a single muffler each side, and she'd sound sweet. Whack on a pointless electronic distributor and MSD.
Now comes some bucks...get a Dellow or something bellhousing kit, and fit a four speed auto out of a newer Falcon, or a five speed manual steel case Celica box (if you can find one...something after-market otherwise).
Three inch driveshaft with loop, and a diff ration of around 2.8 to 3.1:1, and you're away. Oddly enough, unless you are going to be absolutely hammering the car, if the car you get doesn't have a nine inch diff, you can actually save some dough by leaving the 8-7/8" Borg Warner diff in place. They usually had a ratio of around 2.98, and you can find them with disc brakes on things like XC Fairmonts and the like. They are a good strong diff, and like I said, unless you plan on racing the car or thrashing it mercilessly, they will last just fine.
Set up like that with a modern overdrive box, a nice light XD should return reasonably OK fuel economy figures...probably around 26-27 mpg on the highway or more.
Apart from the modern gearbox, that's virtually a copy of an engine I did up for a friend to put in his 1979 Marquis Fairlane, and several others I knew of around the place in the eighties.

God damn...I haven't thought about a motor like that for years...thanks for bringing back great memories...

[f1tzy]

You could be really different and make an awesome mod.

351 clev in the front of the car but because those ugly 3 tonne tanks are symmetrical you could go a nice boss setup in the rear, make it all wheel drive, steering wheel on each end and no one will ever know!!!

like this YouTube - Top Gear Home made stretch limos (Part2 - Test Drive). Gotta watch about a minute in. Cracks me up

[V85000i]

i badly want an XD 351, i got it all planned, id throw a monster cam and carby in/on it, then some 4.11/4.44 diff gears and a 3500-4000 stall (if auto) paint it black and slap a shaker scoop on it, then go line up some a few FPV/HSV owners

[Blown V6 Hatch]

Why do they paint clevelands blue???

So they dont scare the fish!!!

Get a grip guys, clevelands are boat anchors.

For the record, you dont put 302 rods in a 351 you put 302 heads on a 351 brings the compression up to about 10.5:1 with standard 351 pistons, rods & crank.

[pandaman]

Why do they paint clevelands blue???

So they dont scare the fish!!!

Get a grip guys, clevelands are boat anchors.

For the record, you dont put 302 rods in a 351 you put 302 heads on a 351 brings the compression up to about 10.5:1 with standard 351 pistons, rods & crank.

Actually I'm pretty sure there's a valid reason for using 302 rods in a 351 as well. I've heard of it being done before, the longer 302 rod and a shorter piston gives a better stroke to rod length ratio and lets it spin a little faster. I've heard of exactly the same thing being done with 200ci rods in the 250ci six. I wouldn't call the clevo a boat anchor either, there's plenty of tough blue oval cars running them.

[Blown V6 Hatch]

Fair call, but tell me why would you run a big heavy 351 cleveland when you could run a 460 big block that weighs almost the same as a 351 and not much bigger in external dimensions? 351 clevelands are way too heavy for the power they put out. If you really had to do up a ford V8 then you would start with a 460 and be streets ahead of a stinky old 351 cleveland. When compared to a 460, 351's are boat anchors!

[V85000i]

Fair call, but tell me why would you run a big heavy 351 cleveland when you could run a 460 big block that weighs almost the same as a 351 and not much bigger in external dimensions? 351 clevelands are way too heavy for the power they put out. If you really had to do up a ford V8 then you would start with a 460 and be streets ahead of a stinky old 351 cleveland. When compared to a 460, 351's are boat anchors!

well that's a good comparison, that's worse than comparing a 5L to a GEN III, of course more cubic inches is better, tell me how a 350 chev compares to 454?

[pandaman]

Fair call, but tell me why would you run a big heavy 351 cleveland when you could run a 460 big block that weighs almost the same as a 351 and not much bigger in external dimensions? 351 clevelands are way too heavy for the power they put out. If you really had to do up a ford V8 then you would start with a 460 and be streets ahead of a stinky old 351 cleveland. When compared to a 460, 351's are boat anchors!

The big block isn't too much bigger side to side and front to back from memory, it's a matter of a couple of inches I think, but even that can make a difference particularly when you're looking at fitting extractors. I'm pretty sure they're quite a bit taller than a cleveland which can cause issues. (there's one dimension that causes issues anyway, I think it's height) Anyway, the biggest issue with fitting a big block (especially a ford BB) is the lack of aftermarket (or any) parts on our side of the world. Everything has to come from the states. The really funny thing is that there are a lot of ford blokes out there who call the FE series big blocks boat anchors, mainly because in stock form they are, and getting good parts for them out here is a biatch.

With some hard work a cleveland can be stroked to 400 cubes and when (not if) something breaks parts can be gotten locally, (except the crank, which was pretty much only ever used although of course the top quality **** is gonna come from the good ol US of A. The 400 cube option is not commonly done, because the 351block needs modification to take the crank, I've never seen one in person. I've seen one taken out to 378ci, revved smooth and sweet, I had my hand on the inlet manifold while it was doing 5000rpm and it was barely vibrating. Massive torque, it was being used to pull 3tonnes of seriously overloaded XB pano and it still hauled arse.

Like any engine, if a well planned build is executed properly they'll do the job.

[bangers]

a properly built 351 will blow the arse off a genIII. and there is no need to put monster cams and carbs on them to do this.

[Blown V6 Hatch]

For an XD falcon off the shelf extractors can be bought for a 460 so there is no problems putting a 460 in. I wasnt really making a comparison i was simply stating that you could start with a 460 and that i cant see the point in starting with a 351. Like i said 351 clevos are big heavy pieces of junk with not enough cubes to get that weight moving, that is the main problem with it, you are behind the 8 ball to start with more weight = more power & torque to push that weight along.....so it stands to reason that if a 460 weighs near the same as a 351 the 460 is gonna be a better propisition any day of the week.

Pandaman, you are right that there isnt a lot of aftermarket parts available for the 460, cranks, rods etc. but all that is needed in a 460 is a bit more compression and a nice cam and it will fly. 400's lol, dont get me started on that abortion of an engine!

351 whip a gen 3 lol, thats funny, i recall seeing a XY not that long ago with a gen 3 in it. Why do you think he would do that??? For fun??? i dont thinkso. He did it because he could see that a 351 was never going to cut it in this day and age and the Gen 3 is far far superior an engine and they are sooo easy to extract power from.

End of story for me, 351 are piles of crap and thats all they ever will be!

[pandaman]

a properly built 351 will blow the arse off a genIII. and there is no need to put monster cams and carbs on them to do this.

Well built big dollar clevo vs. stock gen3, why hell yes, you're dead right it'll show the gen3 the door. If you're talking dollar for dollar though, you're clearly either under the influence or you've got a coupla kangaroos loose in the top paddock. Maybe both.

For an XD falcon off the shelf extractors can be bought for a 460 so there is no problems putting a 460 in. I wasnt really making a comparison i was simply stating that you could start with a 460 and that i cant see the point in starting with a 351. Like i said 351 clevos are big heavy pieces of junk with not enough cubes to get that weight moving, that is the main problem with it, you are behind the 8 ball to start with more weight = more power & torque to push that weight along.....so it stands to reason that if a 460 weighs near the same as a 351 the 460 is gonna be a better propisition any day of the week.

Pandaman, you are right that there isnt a lot of aftermarket parts available for the 460, cranks, rods etc. but all that is needed in a 460 is a bit more compression and a nice cam and it will fly. 400's lol, dont get me started on that abortion of an engine!

351 whip a gen 3 lol, thats funny, i recall seeing a XY not that long ago with a gen 3 in it. Why do you think he would do that??? For fun??? i dont thinkso. He did it because he could see that a 351 was never going to cut it in this day and age and the Gen 3 is far far superior an engine and they are sooo easy to extract power from.

End of story for me, 351 are piles of crap and thats all they ever will be!

More compression and a chunky cam will get more out of the big block, but you have to keep in mind that it's a standard factory cast bottom end unless you've spent mucho cashola, so it won't stand up to too much more boof. Good point on the off the shelf extractors for the 460 in XD/XE, that's ringing a bell somewhere in the depths of the memory. Can't remember the story of why those exist but i'm pretty sure it's an odd one.

As for the 400 cleveland, yes they're a freak of anti-nature, but they do have a bit of a cult following, which gets a bit of respect from me. Anyway, a 400 cube small block can't be all bad.

I still firmly believe that the cleveland small block has formed an integral part of Australian motoring culture and love it or hate it, it's pretty much here to stay in one form or another, so we might as well learn to get along with it.