New Torana - What do you think?

[Cheap6]

It's rumoured that GM is developing a new small-mid sized RWD car. Four and six cylinder (probably Alloytech.).

I want it. The Commodores has grown with each body update to the point where I believe that it is now too big. I will never buy a VE and would only very reluctantly buy a VT-VZ in the absence of alternatives. RWD still has advantages over FWD, particularly with higher power to weight. This car would be perfect. Actually, it's probably not too different to VB-VL.

What do people think?

[dijm8]

i doubt it very much... i'll believe it when i see it

[hingo1983]

I'd love to see a new Torrie but only if it was designed and made in Australia and that the Commodore would still be produced alongside it. Somehow I don't think all those boxes would be ticked. It would also have to have a 6, turbo/super6 and V8 models. The concept car is a great example.

Check out this article on the subject: Holden will help on 3 Series rival, says GM - drive.com.au

[Astranomical]

I'd like to see it happen. But it would have to be like the original, an Australian built RWD car, with your choice of either an N/A 6, super/turbo 6 or V8. And NO, Holden, a Korean ****box with "Daewoo" crossed out and "Holden" written on in Crayon does NOT count!

[Cheap6]

The V8 and presumably TTV6 have been ruled out because the car would then end up too close to the Commodore in size and weight. But does it need it? At 1300-1400kg the 190kW Alloytech would be pretty good.

That it is supposed to also be sold as a Pontiac in the US is why the rumours are around; the US autoworker's union was told about the car(s) as part of negotiations with GM and leaked the story.

[xlr8_87]

it's called a Vectra

[greenfoam]

Holden have no option but to make a mid sized rwd to keep sellign cars in the Australian market if they want to stay in buisness with the current and future fuel prices so it will happen, just a matter of how long till they get the balls or loose anough money to do it

[Reaper]

It's rumoured that GM is developing a new small-mid sized RWD car. Four and six cylinder (probably Alloytech.).

I want it. The Commodores has grown with each body update to the point where I believe that it is now too big. I will never buy a VE and would only very reluctantly buy a VT-VZ in the absence of alternatives. RWD still has advantages over FWD, particularly with higher power to weight. This car would be perfect. Actually, it's probably not too different to VB-VL.

What do people think?

This car is currently one of the projects in the Fishermans' Bend design studio right now. Other than being roughly the size of the VB-L they will have nothing in common.

This car will probably be built in Europe. It is going to be pitched at the premium small/medium sector where a Korean car simply wont cut it. There is an outside chance it will be built in the USA but highly unlikely to be in OZ due our unfavorable currency and capacity issues.

Reaper

[hingo1983]

Why can't they build the Torana in Australia and build the overseas version in europe or US? Holden is probably the best car maker under the GM banner and has always had good solid sales while other GM brands are heading in the opposite direction. Since the factory is already at capacity, they need to expand and allow a medium sized car to be build alongside the Commodore. Ford Australia are doing this with the Focus so why not the Torana?

[ProphetVX]

it's called a Vectra

Vectra's are FWD. Some came out in europe with AWD however.

[Reaper]

Why can't they build the Torana in Australia and build the overseas version in europe or US? Holden is probably the best car maker under the GM banner and has always had good solid sales while other GM brands are heading in the opposite direction. Since the factory is already at capacity, they need to expand and allow a medium sized car to be build alongside the Commodore. Ford Australia are doing this with the Focus so why not the Torana?

It simply comes down to cost.

The Ford plant is no where near capacity and needed to do something. When all the zeta models come on line Elizabeth will be at capacity and with so many GM global plants at 60% (or less) of capacity they will be filled before any more are built. My personal tip is it will be built in Europe. This will give it some cred in it's major markets.

Over the last decade or so Australia has become renown for it's R&D capability, turning out excellent cars on a fraction of the development budgets of the rest of the world. This will continue and Australia will be the design home of the bulk of GM RWD passenger cars. Trucks will be in USA with the rest split between Europe and USA.

With the A$ in it's current state, and Govco looking to reduce tariff protection for local manufacturing, I can't see this car being built here. The volumes won't be big enough for a stand alone product and the exchange to the rest of the world will out price it for export.

Reaper

[Cheap6]

Other than being roughly the size of the VB-L they will have nothing in common.

Reaper

That's what I meant. Glad to hear that it has a good chance of becoming a reality. Sort of a Holden IS250.

[Jon Z]

It simply comes down to cost.

The Ford plant is no where near capacity and needed to do something. When all the zeta models come on line Elizabeth will be at capacity and with so many GM global plants at 60% (or less) of capacity they will be filled before any more are built. My personal tip is it will be built in Europe. This will give it some cred in it's major markets.

Over the last decade or so Australia has become renown for it's R&D capability, turning out excellent cars on a fraction of the development budgets of the rest of the world. This will continue and Australia will be the design home of the bulk of GM RWD passenger cars. Trucks will be in USA with the rest split between Europe and USA.

With the A$ in it's current state, and Govco looking to reduce tariff protection for local manufacturing, I can't see this car being built here. The volumes won't be big enough for a stand alone product and the exchange to the rest of the world will out price it for export.

Reaper

Thats all too true.

I also read that there will possibly be v6 in capacities of 2.8, 3.2, and 3.6L and also read elsewhere that maybe a 3.2L single turbo. these will be along side possible versions of the 2L Ecotec etc. I dunno how true any of these claims are.

If its being built in Europe do you think will it be similar to the Opel GTC Concept previewed earlier this year? This is what motor mag seems to think as in their latest issue the so called 'Torana' is basically a photo chopped GTC concept.

Holden really needs a decent mid size RWD sedan as shown buy the last few months of car sales, large cars are rapidly decreasing in sales while mid size cars are on the boom.

[Cobez]

GM can stick the idea of a new Torry right up their clacker IMO.

Keep a classic a freakin' classic FFS. But then again, i thought bringing out that new haggard Monaro was an awful idea too, lots of people seem to be driving them. One of the ugliest, most haneous looking things GM produced. I seriously hate the newer Monaros.

[greenfoam]

Cobez, when I was younger I used to think the HQ coupe was the ugliest car on the road. While now days I MAY still consider the 4 door HQ to be better looking, the HQ coupe is one very very sexy car. Things change, give it time and the new Monaros will look very good and will be a classic, I promise . I use to think anything newer than a HG Monaro wasn't a real Monaro and was rubbish (I still think the HK-HG Monaro is the best looking car ever to be made in Australia)

[cano1]

Cobez, when I was younger I used to think the HQ coupe was the ugliest car on the road. While now days I MAY still consider the 4 door HQ to be better looking, the HQ coupe is one very very sexy car. Things change, give it time and the new Monaros will look very good and will be a classic, I promise . I use to think anything newer than a HG Monaro wasn't a real Monaro and was rubbish (I still think the HK-HG Monaro is the best looking car ever to be made in Australia)

thats sort of what i was like with the new ve, i hated it and i thought it was the worst holden ever built but now i sort of like it.

[steve9119]

the torana was just a small family car when it started, it wasnt untill later it became the big 5 litre beast we now love. some how the car evolved into a totaly different car over it's life

it takes a while for cars to become popular and to become classics, i just dont understand why people want to recycle classic names onto new cars (eg. monaro) the latest monaro should have had its own name and developed its own history.

imagine if holden started making a FJ holden commodore, just using the name to catch sales.

is the holden epica the "torana" for this decade? who knows what this model will evolve into and who will start making performance modifications for it.
(or will it become a camira?)

[AttaBoy]

LOL, holden Crapica will become a trash can pretty soon. I don't see how its gonna make into the "performance" sector sometime later.

[Evolution_Ends_Here]

saw some pics in last month wheel motor mag

[steve9119]

But the torana started out as a Vauxhall Viva. the bonet was stretched to fit in a bigger engine, who knows what could happen to the Epica in the future
Epica is the first Holden to have an engine developed in conjunction with Porsche... so some one gave it a sporty heritage....
If Holden can put a 5 litre V8 into a Opel Rekord who knows what they may do with the Daewoo they call Epica.... a Holden SLR5000 Epica

[albert5268]

Hopefully it doesn't turn out as bad as an Opel Rekord/VB-VK Commodore

[commsirac]

it takes a while for cars to become popular and to become classics, i just dont understand why people want to recycle classic names onto new cars (eg. monaro) the latest monaro should have had its own name and developed its own history.

imagine if holden started making a FJ holden commodore, just using the name to catch sales.

Mate, its Chrissy day, so Ill be kind as possible:

Possibly you didn’t have much time to think through the logic of the FJ Holden Commodore.
Basically GMH only produced one shape(+station sedan) right up to the late 60s. So the cars were known as Holdens with just their model no used to identify them. I.e. fx, ej.. They were available as the special….which started off with armrests in the FJ and we got through to the premier etc, but they were all just simply Holdens with the prefix of a model no.

Enter late 60s. More than one shape on the market……can’t simply call all the different shapes a Holden; each model was given a name:
Belmont replaced base model, Kingswood became special, premier as is and three new shapes Torana, Monaro and Brougham.
The Brougham name didn’t last long; perhaps it was too hard for the average aussie to speel and pronownce, so became the Statesman.
It would be equally silly to call a new model the VB commodore(classic?)

My own reckoning would be that the commodore would possibly still be called the Kingswood if GM had dropped the Kingswood instead of marketing it with the commodore at the time. The commodore killed off both the Kingswood and the torana at the same time. Holden could have called the camira a torana if they wanted to, but I think even at that time they wanted to remove the older connotations from their range.

Interestingly ford has managed to maintain their lineup of falcon, future, Fairmont, fairlane,ltd for quite a while…….and has revived the mustang(did it ever disappear) as GM has with the Camaro.

Personally, I don’t think GM would every use the Torana name again…….it is really a car that in the present day is more associated with hoons and bogans LOL and rusted out pieces of cra..., They would be looking to pitch a possible replacement as something that is similar in size to a bmw 5 series(vb comm size) and look to the yuppy executive market as a good customer base. Somehow, stating you drive a Torana might not be interpreted the right way when rubbing shoulders with the corporate sect.

I don’t think they’d market something as small as the old torana in a rwd, don’t know if any of you have tried sitting in the back seat of a "current" torana, there isnt much room. As ^, something in the 5 series size, cant see that it would need anything more than 3L with today’s technology and even be available as a 2L. For all those nostalgics….the 3.3L red motor was good for about 80kW. Possibly this is what the new commodores will become…..the current ones are big…..and the parking spots seem to be getting smaller……don’t know how fat people can get out the doors at shopping centers……

[Cobez]

Cobez, when I was younger I used to think the HQ coupe was the ugliest car on the road. While now days I MAY still consider the 4 door HQ to be better looking, the HQ coupe is one very very sexy car. Things change, give it time and the new Monaros will look very good and will be a classic, I promise . I use to think anything newer than a HG Monaro wasn't a real Monaro and was rubbish (I still think the HK-HG Monaro is the best looking car ever to be made in Australia)

Oh i'm not saying the new Monaro isn't a Monaro, it very much is, i just think nothing beats an original. It just wasn't a great start to the new era bringing out the VT / VX body based one. The GTO coupe looks alot nicer though.

I guess they just have to take feedback from the latest Monaro and work with it and improve on future models. I have to admit though, it was a risky step re-releasing a classic like that, so all in all they haven't done TOO bad, just my personal taste doesn't like it at all.

But points are there for the risk factor.

[steve9119]

[QUOTE=commsirac;676771]Mate, its Chrissy day, so Ill be kind as possible:

Possibly you didn’t have much time to think through the logic of the FJ Holden Commodore.
Basically GMH only produced one shape(+station sedan) right up to the late 60s. So the cars were known as Holdens with just their model no used to identify them. I.e. fx, ej.. They were available as the special….which started off with armrests in the FJ and we got through to the premier etc, but they were all just simply Holdens with the prefix of a model no.




I did have time to think it through,
and i do understand the types of holdens released over the years.

my point was the names given to some cars have an association to that particular car and to that moment im time. For classic holdens the name "torana" "FJ" and "monaro" represent a icon of australian motoring.

Would it be right or wrong to reuse the name FJ in a modern holden?

some people will question the naming of a new midsize car as a torana. simply because the name torana represents a different car, sold to a different customer many years ago. recycling the name torana may not even appeal to car buyers in 2008 etc

my reference to a FJ commodore represented and example of "using" a classic name to some how create a marketing image for a modern car. for the purpose for marketing that car to people who want to buy "nostelga"

consider the possible range of VE commodores:
Calais, Berlina, SS, Monaro, SV6, FJ and the Lumina.

FJ commodore sounds nice to me, it could have retro style chrome grill, different tail lights, rear window venitians,white wall tyres, special rims and other mods.

the point i was trying to make was: some car names should be sacred and not reused.


PS: merry Christmas to everyone

[commsirac]

[QUOTE=steve9119;676821]

consider the possible range of VE commodores:
Calais, Berlina, SS, Monaro, SV6, FJ and the Lumina.

Think this is the part where we are at odds.

As far as I understand it, the holden V series refers to the "commodore" body type as most know it. I suppose the naming of this very site adds to the confusion.

However, for example: it is a VX berlina, not a VX commodore Berlina. The word commodore doesnt appear anywhere on my berlina or the owner's manual.

So yes having a VE "FJ" would be okay, but not a VE "FJ commodore".....if that's is really what we wanted to call them.