Ford to Keep the I6 Beyond 2010?

[minux]

Well considering Euro IV standards are superseded in the coming months(SEP 2009, for cars released after sep 09), cars produced will have to meet euro V standards. Which is what this engineer has said can't be met with the engine being in the car.

Anyway, what do I know, I only spoke to an engineer at ford, perhaps you have better contacts within the business?

[1991_Vn2nV]

Well considering Euro IV standards are superseded in the coming months(SEP 2009, for cars released after sep 09), cars produced will have to meet euro V standards. Which is what this engineer has said can't be met with the engine being in the car.

Anyway, what do I know, I only spoke to an engineer at ford, perhaps you have better contacts within the business?

Australia lags behind Europe in the Euro standards so it is Euro IV not Euro V. I.e. Euro III was 2001 in Europe, but Euro III only came into effect here in 2006 (hence the introduction of Gen IV here, to meet Euro III). Read the quote below regarding Euro IV in Australia compared to Euro V in Europe.

In Europe, any new model launched after September 2005 was required to comply with Euro IV emission rules and all cars had to comply by January 1, 2006 - four years before their Australian-made counterparts.

At present, Australian cars are only required to be Euro III compliant, although the majority of imported cars on the roads are Euro IV compliant.

All European cars launched after September 2009 will have to comply with the next standard, Euro V - nine months before Australia adopts the older Euro IV standard.

I don't really care what some engineer told you, fact is the engine is going to be re-engineered and it is going to meet Euro 4 standards. Considering he didn't even know what standards the engine had to meet... So obviously what he told you was wrong or misinformed or misinterpreted. Perhaps he was talking about Euro V, but thats not relevant until 2013/2014 for us.

[Full Spectrum]

It doesn't make financial sense to keep the I6 on. One thing it was made to believe is it's cheaper and easier in the long run going on a global engine. It might also bring exports opportunity's which long term is great.

[1991_Vn2nV]

It doesn't make financial sense to keep the I6 on. One thing it was made to believe is it's cheaper and easier in the long run going on a global engine. It might also bring exports opportunity's which long term is great.

The aussie dollar may have had an impact on using the global V6 in terms of financial viability?

The FG hasn't been developed for LHD, so exports are out of the equation until the next all new falcon which is around 2013, so perhaps they decided to keep the I6 in the Falcon thats been designed for it until the next platform which should be a global platform and designed for the V6. This way they save some money on development costs for fitting the V6 to the FG update and the Territory as well and it saves plant re-tooling etc.

[Shounak]

lol most people don't care about the engine? So power, torque, driveability, FUEL ECONOMY etc. don't have any impact on vehicle purchases?

What exactly are you comparing the Falcon to? The entire Mazda range? Compare either the entire range of both manufacturers, or one model against one model.

If you want facts, heres one. Right now, Ford are up 4.4% on sales between 07 and 08 last month. Mazda are down 24% on sales between 07 and 08 last month. And thats not 24% down in just fleet sales, its private sales too.

The closest thing Mazda have to the Falcon is the Mazda6 which sold only 720 vehicles last month. Falcon sold 2,747 sedans and 1,071 utes. So 720 v. over 3800 vehicles. Im pretty sure that tells you that the Falcon is still more appealing to the Australian consumer than the Mazda equivalent, even if you take fleet sales out.

What kills Holden and Ford are their smaller car offerings (particularly Holden) produced by their global companies... Not the Australian arm. When the new Fiesta is out in January it will hurt sales of the Mazda2 very bad (seeing as its a Mazda2 with 18 months more development and a variety of advantages), and the new focus is pulling in alot of sales too (1,387 cars last month!).

I look forward to your vast array of 'facts' that you have spent months researching, particularly private sales of say Falcon vs. Mazda6 last month.

I doubt most people give two shi s about nuanced changes in an engine. At least the buyers of Commodores/Falcons I've seen couldn't even tell you how many kw's it has.

Those numbers mean crap, unless you can seperate between fleet and private. The telling sign isn't sales figures, but profit figures. Mazda/Toyota have been able to maintain consistent profit figures, compared to H/F's losses.

I didn't say the Falcon is not at all appealing, but there is a huge change in consumer preferences which basically makes the Falcon unsustainable.

Small cars are only one part of the equation. I don't have time now, but I'll show you some stats.

[1991_Vn2nV]

I doubt most people give two shi s about nuanced changes in an engine. At least the buyers of Commodores/Falcons I've seen couldn't even tell you how many kw's it has.

Those numbers mean crap, unless you can seperate between fleet and private. The telling sign isn't sales figures, but profit figures. Mazda/Toyota have been able to maintain consistent profit figures, compared to H/F's losses.

I didn't say the Falcon is not at all appealing, but there is a huge change in consumer preferences which basically makes the Falcon unsustainable.

Small cars are only one part of the equation. I don't have time now, but I'll show you some stats.

Profits and losses are due to management issues in my opinion rather than the vehicles. Especially in regards to Toyota who are the new fleet special. They'll sell a car for no profit as long as they sell it. Althought Toyota have more profit here anyway because they are dominating the market.

I would be interested in any profit stats on the Australian arm of Mazda vs. Holden vs. Ford in terms of money made per vehicle. You can't compare total profits made as Ford and Holden have substantial costs here compared to the Australian arm of Mazda as Mazda only sell the vehicles here, they don't have the costs involved in running a manufacturing plant.

[Full Spectrum]

The aussie dollar may have had an impact on using the global V6 in terms of financial viability?

Yeah your probably right.

The FG hasn't been developed for LHD, so exports are out of the equation until the next all new falcon which is around 2013, so perhaps they decided to keep the I6 in the Falcon that's been designed for it until the next platform which should be a global platform and designed for the V6. This way they save some money on development costs for fitting the V6 to the FG update and the Territory as well and it saves plant re-tooling etc.

I was told it was the motor that stops it from being LHD. Don't know how much truth is behind it though.
I can only see them long term with exports like holden. Also i hope that V6 moves into the FG before the new car. It's always been a good thing on holden's part to stuff that motor into something before the all new model comes out. That way you get so much time and develpment from feednack.

Such as this. I have already seen a FG on the back of a truck towed away. Out on my morning walk i passed this truck. Couldn't help myself nosy parker - I went back and spoke to the guy. He said the Auto dropped it's guts as simply as that. Ford want it back like yesterday to see what went wrong. 800km on the clock and a mess all over the place. But that might just be like holden having the glitches with the computer on displays and ESP programs. First time out issues. That's why i hope they get the V6 in before a new model.

[1991_Vn2nV]

I guess they can get some feedback on the V6 in the CX9. Not sure how much will change on the engine between that and whenever it hits the Falcon though.

Speaking of Holdens exports, apparently no more G8 after VE/VF which is a grim decision for Holden as US exports are fairly vital for their long term so not having the Commodore in the US isn't good.

Ford have the Focus plan for Australia though which I believe is on the go still? So building the Focus here and exporting that will be great for Ford Australia to back up the Falcon until a global platform comes in around 2013.

[Full Spectrum]

Fuel has been a question mark. The claimed economy isn't even close on the road. That's the word from Europe.

That's 2 nails from good old GM. Firts was not using the VE platform and then ****ing it off because they have this ridicules new fuel law coming in that they believe only a FWD car and do.

Hopefully holden follow with something. Though back in the vectra days it didn't go all that smooth. Holden should have built the astra.

[danja]

There's tons of focus on engines to reduce emissions, but you don't hear much about manufacturers trying to get the GVM of their vehicles down? That's would do wonders for economy and emissions.

I've never seen a good breakdown of where the 1650kg that makes up a Commodore is spent? How much is engine? How much is the body work? How much interior parts etc.

I wonder how much could be saved?

[andyman]

How does moving to FWD improve emissions?!

i meant it in the context as they will keep the engine going until the next chassis is used, so they dont have to spend money engineering the v6 to the current platform,


fyi, a press release from ford stated they cant guarantee the next falcon to be rwd, and if it goes fwd, sports models like the xr's may be awd to keep enthusiest happy


me thinks maybe alot of input from ford usa in the next falcon, like common global drivetrain, global chassis, etc could be part of an export thing like holden has going,

[Skitz]

I doubt most people give two shi s about nuanced changes in an engine. At least the buyers of Commodores/Falcons I've seen couldn't even tell you how many kw's it has.

Those numbers mean crap, unless you can seperate between fleet and private. The telling sign isn't sales figures, but profit figures. Mazda/Toyota have been able to maintain consistent profit figures, compared to H/F's losses.

I didn't say the Falcon is not at all appealing, but there is a huge change in consumer preferences which basically makes the Falcon unsustainable.

Small cars are only one part of the equation. I don't have time now, but I'll show you some stats.

Gotta love the old ''Don't have time now, but.....''
I look forward to some backup information in relation to your expertise on this topic, considering you have studied in detail your ''Brack's report'' and have focused your attention particularly on this subject for months.
I have not done any research on SUV's v's sedans, but I disagree on your theory that this is the future of Australian motoring.
Mazda being superior against Holden/Ford private sales as per your suggestion is questionable also.
So rather than delay, lets see just how knowlegable you are on this given your extensive research.

[greenfoam]

There's tons of focus on engines to reduce emissions, but you don't hear much about manufacturers trying to get the GVM of their vehicles down? That's would do wonders for economy and emissions.

I've never seen a good breakdown of where the 1650kg that makes up a Commodore is spent? How much is engine? How much is the body work? How much interior parts etc.

I wonder how much could be saved?

All the extra weight over say a 1350 kg VN is in the airbags, side intrusion bars and mostly extra body deadner. People these days rather pay more for fuel than have a few sound effects. From my perspective I see the fumes comming out of new cars as alot worse than any sounds they could make. At foaming industries the imaginary car company... car's would all be made from alluminium inside and out, painted with non toxic paint, no deadner and the money saved on tar and rubber would be put into making the engines sound decent. It probably wouldn't be much different than TVR really :0

[Pub247]

All the extra weight over say a 1350 kg VN is in the airbags, side intrusion bars and mostly extra body deadner. People these days rather pay more for fuel than have a few sound effects. From my perspective I see the fumes comming out of new cars as alot worse than any sounds they could make. At foaming industries the imaginary car company... car's would all be made from alluminium inside and out, painted with non toxic paint, no deadner and the money saved on tar and rubber would be put into making the engines sound decent. It probably wouldn't be much different than TVR really :0

So would that mean they break down alot handle horribly and the company would go broke be bought by some crazy russain??

But man they do sound tough theyre 6 cylinders sound better than a bmw m3

[greenfoam]

I'd doesn't matter if you went broke so long as you made good cars . If people didn't buy them then screw the people

[Pub247]

true i wouldn't say no to a tvr tuscan 6

[Full Spectrum]

There's tons of focus on engines to reduce emissions, but you don't hear much about manufacturers trying to get the GVM of their vehicles down? That's would do wonders for economy and emissions.

I've never seen a good breakdown of where the 1650kg that makes up a Commodore is spent? How much is engine? How much is the body work? How much interior parts etc.

I wonder how much could be saved?

Now that would be something else reducing weight..

I removed a sub box and amp from my old car. Dropped 40kg.. Holden spoke sometime ago about using lighter parts and plastic panels etc. They must have dropped it or forgotten.

[Skitz]

I doubt most people give two shi s about nuanced changes in an engine. At least the buyers of Commodores/Falcons I've seen couldn't even tell you how many kw's it has.

Those numbers mean crap, unless you can seperate between fleet and private. The telling sign isn't sales figures, but profit figures. Mazda/Toyota have been able to maintain consistent profit figures, compared to H/F's losses.

I didn't say the Falcon is not at all appealing, but there is a huge change in consumer preferences which basically makes the Falcon unsustainable.

Small cars are only one part of the equation. I don't have time now, but I'll show you some stats.

You must be a busy man, where are your stats?

[Shounak]

You must be a busy man, where are your stats?

Sounds like I've hit a nerve. You've got me going through my uni notes again, but I'll see what I can dig up.

Changing consumer preferences
There has been a significant change in the type of vehicles demanded by Australian consumers.[1] Traditionally, the Australian vehicle market has been dominated by large passenger cars and their variants. There has been a trend in Australia and internationally towards smaller, lower fuel consumption vehicles, sports utility vehicles (SUVs) and luxury cars. This trend has recently accelerated, and impacted on local vehicle producers, with the market share of Australian MVPs falling from 30 percent in 2002 to 19 percent in 2007.
More specifically, since 2002, domestic sales of new Australian-made vehicles have decreased for GM Holden (by 33 percent), Ford (by 10.5 percent), and Mitsubishi (by 53 percent). Only sales of Australian-made Toyota vehicles have increased since 2002—by 22 percent to 2007. This trend has continued into the first two months of 2008, with sales of Australian-made vehicles continuing to fall.


Nonetheless, there are early encouraging signs that Australian MVPs are responding to the changing market circumstances. For example, Ford has announced plans to manufacture the four-cylinder Focus in Australia from 2011, and Toyota plans to build the Camry hybrid locally from 2010.

Basically code for, whilst people used to buy big Aussie Falcodores, they're simply not buying them anymore. The Falcodore is being ditched for other cars. Ie. The Territory, 318i and small cars.

The only encouragement as outlined here is that Aussie manufacturers are moving away from the Falcodore and towards mid sized cars such as the Camry or the smaller cars. The added advantage with these cars is that they make use of global economies of scale. Australia produces 0.5% of the worlds cars and it's true Australia is one of the only nations which can see the process through to the end. But it's not viable.

Just as you may have the capability to make your own shoes, from scratch. But it's just not viable. You're much better off just buying your shoes. Or in this case, it's what I call Big Mac cars.

I'll address waning demand for Aussie cars and it shifting into Mazda/VW etc in my next post.

[Shounak]

Gotta love the old ''Don't have time now, but.....''
I look forward to some backup information in relation to your expertise on this topic, considering you have studied in detail your ''Brack's report'' and have focused your attention particularly on this subject for months.
I have not done any research on SUV's v's sedans, but I disagree on your theory that this is the future of Australian motoring.
Mazda being superior against Holden/Ford private sales as per your suggestion is questionable also.
So rather than delay, lets see just how knowlegable you are on this given your extensive research.

Stats I very easily pulled from my notes so far. Now are you going to keep making arguments with NO basis whatsoever just based on a gut feeling and keep asking for statistics.

Or will you open your bloody eyes and have a look around.

What's your basis for saying it's questionable? I've got plenty more stats here, but unless you come up with something good to challenge my views. Cya later.

• the four Australian makers -20 per cent of the market from Australian factories, or 200,000 vehicles. Ten years ago, they built 255,000 out of 807,000: a 32 per cent share.

• About 75 per cent of those 200,000 were bought by fleets or government, while private buyers - who are fussier but spend more - account for just 25 per cent. So last year, only 50,000 locally built cars were bought by those who actually have to put their hands in their pockets, a mere 5per cent of the Australian market.

• Put another way, at least one of the import-only brands with lots of showroom appeal - Mazda - sold to more private buyers than all the local makers put together.

• In 2007, governments bought 13,000 fewer cars than in 2005 - a 22 per cent decline - and almost all of the lost sales would have been locally built. So far in 2008, governments have purchased 5000 fewer cars than at the same stage last year.

• Volkswagen is one European importer making inroads into fleets as companies start to examine smaller, four-cylinder imports. A recent deal with Woolworths commits the supermarket to buy 3000 Volkswagen Jettas and Passats. All imported, of course.

• The most revealing trend emerges from total vehicle numbers. Here, the large car share has shrunk virtually every year, from 27 per cent a decade ago to just 13 per cent last year. Meanwhile, another sort of large vehicle, the sport utility vehicle, which usually has four-wheel-drive, steadily lifted its share from 12 per cent to 19 per cent. Even a compact SUV is a sizeable thing and if you lump together SUV and large sedan sales, people are buying more big wheels, not fewer. Clearly they've switched allegiances in a way that isn't about the price of fuel. In 2005, for the first time we bought more SUVs than large sedans.

In less than a decade, Australia has stopped embracing the Falcon-Commodore as its national motor format and taken up the SUV.

[Shounak]

Profits and losses are due to management issues in my opinion rather than the vehicles. Especially in regards to Toyota who are the new fleet special. They'll sell a car for no profit as long as they sell it. Althought Toyota have more profit here anyway because they are dominating the market.

I agree to an extent. As a Commerce grad, I know how easily profit can be manipulated. But vehicle sales and market share is not something companies want to play down.

The sale of Large Aussie cars is waning and the manufacturers are looking to get more into the SUV/Small/Mid cars. That's the only way to move forward.

Aussie car manufacturers are dying and a fiscal stimulus is barely a jump start. They need to restructure and shift their manufacturing to make cars the people want. Not the cars that people wanted 30 years ago.

[Shounak]

I disagree on your theory that this is the future of Australian motoring.

I also forgot to mention. I want some basis for this disagreement with my theory.

Evidence/statistics/respected opinions etc. I'm waiting.

[jules]

It doesn't make financial sense to keep the I6 on.

ford was given a bucketload of cash by the victorian govt to keep making the I6 in geelong. it makes sense for them.

with meeting emission stds, i wouldn't have thought the configuration of the engine makes much difference. the main issues are injection/ignition calibration and after treatment (more expensive exhaust catalyst). after that, you may need to muck around with combustion, head/port design, cam timing - i'd have thought you can do that with the existing engine.

euro 4 engines will operate on lower-sulfur 95 RON fuel i think - not 91 - this also helps.

[1991_Vn2nV]

Keep in mind Shounak, that all those facts you posted are not current.

Mazda are down 24% since your facts were written, and ford up 4.4%. Thats a massive swing and really it negates most of your argument.

If you could get some CURRENT facts and figures regarding private sales between Ford and Mazda that would be relevant. Say October or November from vFacts or something. The swing over 08 has been the opposite since your information was written.

Also keep in mind where we are headed. Are people still going to want tiny cars when economy is no longer such an issue? Once most new cars are either Hybrids or Hydrogen or Electric powered vehicles, are people still going to love the little cars over the more practical family sedan?

[Skitz]

I also forgot to mention. I want some basis for this disagreement with my theory.

Evidence/statistics/respected opinions etc. I'm waiting.

Bravo Shounak, basically I was as you suggested motivated by a gut feeling and I do respect the information you have provided.
However, as it appears most or all of your stats are obsolete, you may have to get back up to speed and stop relying on pre-historic information.
Now when you have some up to date material, try again.