GM Bankrupcy?

[OzJD]

John McCain says General Motors should seek bankruptcy, not ask for more aid | Breaking News | News.com.au

Just wondering if anyone knows if GM go broke, does it affect Holden directly?

[MasterOfReality]

Probably would, as far as ownership goes.

GM in the states is bleeding cash as they have just realised they are making cars nobody really wants.

Plus they have to wear the massive cost of health plans for their entire workforce, including retired workers. The blame for that aspect rests squarely on the unions.

I read recently that Holden seems to be the only GM division that is actually making any money.

If GM files for bankruptcy, Holden will be snapped up by another auto maker.

[andyman]

Probably would, as far as ownership goes.

GM in the states is bleeding cash as they have just realised they are making cars nobody really wants.

Plus they have to wear the massive cost of health plans for their entire workforce, including retired workers. The blame for that aspect rests squarely on the unions.

I read recently that Holden seems to be the only GM division that is actually making any money.

If GM files for bankruptcy, Holden will be snapped up by another auto maker.

ford! lol


i reckon if gm gets split and holden get bought buy another company with lesser brand holden may than struggle as exports seem to be helping them alot

[greenfoam]

I don't think GM is likely to make it at least not with Holden attached. They allready let go of Opel and Saab the other week. Hyundai might be up for buying Holden ?

[drewins]

GM thinks we are still viable apparently. As opposed to plants in Canada and umm forgot some of the others. We will still prob need some form of restructure though.

[VrWagz1]

Probably would, as far as ownership goes.

GM in the states is bleeding cash as they have just realised they are making cars nobody really wants.

Plus they have to wear the massive cost of health plans for their entire workforce, including retired workers. The blame for that aspect rests squarely on the unions.

Why is that the unions fault. Its not their fault the american government forced employers to stop giving workers pay rises. It was the best way workers could be rewarded for working. I think its a great achievement from the unions, but in a sense it was ultimately the government that caused the situation to happen. I wish something like that could be achieved here. Id forgo a few pay rises for some quality conditions like that in my CA.
However like the people in america that lived through those hard years they would be rope able that their pay rises back then were lost and now their health plans they achieved for that loss is being thrown away so their net gain is 0.

[Full Spectrum]

GM used Holden as their example of survival. I can't see them letting them go unless they crumble and have no choice. Holden is way to important to GM. They own more of Deadwood then GM, They build all types of cars and help build a shit load of others. They are to important to let slip. Holden could design the whole range if needed.

[Reaper]

Why is that the unions fault. Its not their fault the american government forced employers to stop giving workers pay rises. It was the best way workers could be rewarded for working. I think its a great achievement from the unions, but in a sense it was ultimately the government that caused the situation to happen. I wish something like that could be achieved here. Id forgo a few pay rises for some quality conditions like that in my CA.
However like the people in america that lived through those hard years they would be rope able that their pay rises back then were lost and now their health plans they achieved for that loss is being thrown away so their net gain is 0.

The auto workers union have a lot of responsibility in this. Their negotiating tactics have been deplorable over the years and have held the company to ransom (Ford and Chysler too). That does not absolve GM management who have made crap cars that nobody wanted for many decades as well.

GM used Holden as their example of survival. I can't see them letting them go unless they crumble and have no choice. Holden is way to important to GM. They own more of Deadwood then GM, They build all types of cars and help build a shit load of others. They are to important to let slip. Holden could design the whole range if needed.

On the other hand, they are one of the few divisions which GM could ask a premium price for, thus potentially receiving many years profit now which may hold the wolves from the door for several more days. I don't think they will sell Holden myself but don't be suprised if they do.

Reaper

[MasterOfReality]

Why is that the unions fault. Its not their fault the american government forced employers to stop giving workers pay rises. It was the best way workers could be rewarded for working. I think its a great achievement from the unions, but in a sense it was ultimately the government that caused the situation to happen. I wish something like that could be achieved here. Id forgo a few pay rises for some quality conditions like that in my CA.
However like the people in america that lived through those hard years they would be rope able that their pay rises back then were lost and now their health plans they achieved for that loss is being thrown away so their net gain is 0.

See Reapers reply.

The unions have shot themselves in the foot with this one. This very issue about healthcare plans has been the central focus. Indeed, its why a lot of people wanted to work for the American auto makers, yet they and their unions ignored repeated warnings about the detrimental effect it would have as generations of workers retired and GM and the like are forced to foot the ever increasing medical bill.

Its widely known that if GM and the like want to have a chance at survival, the first thing they have to do it scrap the health plans. Part of the blame also rests with GM, for allowing the unions to take so much.

[1991_Vn2nV]

On the other hand, they are one of the few divisions which GM could ask a premium price for, thus potentially receiving many years profit now which may hold the wolves from the door for several more days. I don't think they will sell Holden myself but don't be suprised if they do.

Reaper

On a world scale though, Holden is not worth much money. When you look at how fast GM are burning through cash, Holden wouldn't cover a months losses to GM. Any short term gain would not be worth the long term loss, and it would not look good for the US Government after Holden was used as GM's example.

On a side note, GM are starting to make some much nicer cars at the moment. The Opel Insignia and Chevvy Malibu are prime examples of cars that are actually class leading in their regions for GM. Just a pity they are a few years too late.

[Full Spectrum]

On the other hand, they are one of the few divisions which GM could ask a premium price for, thus potentially receiving many years profit now which may hold the wolves from the door for several more days. I don't think they will sell Holden myself but don't be suprised if they do.

Reaper

If it comes to that, Lets hope Holden can operate as normal. I don't mind Holden moving away from GM ownership. Infact it might be a better thing for Holden ?.

[50LTRv8]

How would Holden go about getting it's V8 engines though. Wouldn't it loose access to the GM parts bin for future development?

[Full Spectrum]

GM wont let go cash from anyone lol.

[MasterOfReality]

If it comes to that, Lets hope Holden can operate as normal. I don't mind Holden moving away from GM ownership. Infact it might be a better thing for Holden ?.

The best thing would be for Holden to be snapped up by a Jap or Euro maker. Hell, even the Koreans. Look at Hyundai. Their quality improvements are surpassing Holden!

How would Holden go about getting it's V8 engines though. Wouldn't it loose access to the GM parts bin for future development?

It wouldn't be a great loss.

Imagine if Holden was bought out by a company like Audi or VW? Their V8 and high performance expertise easily surpasses GM in my opinion.

But it ain't gonna happen though.....

[Full Spectrum]

The best thing would be for Holden to be snapped up by a Jap or Euro maker. Hell, even the Koreans. Look at Hyundai. Their quality improvements are surpassing Holden!

Yes that would be nice, And your right about Hyundai they are leading the Korean quality by a mile.
Holden could help them get into the ring with a few Euro cars.

[1991_Vn2nV]

It wouldn't be a great loss.

Imagine if Holden was bought out by a company like Audi or VW? Their V8 and high performance expertise easily surpasses GM in my opinion.

But it ain't gonna happen though.....

Im pretty sure Audi and VW make nothing close to the Gen IV V8's power in that price range.

A 317kw crate engine for $6,000. They're a fantastic engine for the price, with their power and torque curves and still maintaining good fuel economy for their size. Mate them to the transmissions you find in Audi and VW and put them in a car with their dynamics and it would be a very good combination.

Go to VW or Audi and you'd be looking at $20,000+++ and lets face it, why buy a Commodore with an Audi engine if its going to cost the same as an Audi...

Anyway, there is plenty of potential there, just look at the ZR1.

[VS Omega]

Im pretty sure Audi and VW make nothing close to the Gen IV V8's power in that price range.

A 317kw crate engine for $6,000. They're a fantastic engine for the price, with their power and torque curves and still maintaining good fuel economy for their size. Mate them to the transmissions you find in Audi and VW and put them in a car with their dynamics and it would be a very good combination.

Go to VW or Audi and you'd be looking at $20,000+++ and lets face it, why buy a Commodore with an Audi engine if its going to cost the same as an Audi...

Anyway, there is plenty of potential there, just look at the ZR1.

Refinement, regardless of how cheap the Commodore is there's a reason why - it's very basic compared to those cars (everything about them from materials to feeling) and even their engines... I would sacrifice power and performance for a more refined family car, after all it's going to be driven on the road only. If I wanted a sporty car which I can take to the track occasionally the Falcon would be my pick (in terms of new cars - F6E if they build it) but for a road only car give me European if I could afford it any day (thus why I own a Commodore - I can't)

[1991_Vn2nV]

Refinement, regardless of how cheap the Commodore is there's a reason - it's very basic compared to those cars... I would rather have less power but a more refined family car, afterall it's going to be driven on the road only. If I wanted a sporty car the Falcon would be my pick (in terms of new cars) for the occasional track car which can be driven daily but for a road only car give me European if I could afford it any day (thus why I own a Commodore!!)

...Exactly. With Audi/VW drivetrains do you think you could still afford a Commodore? If you could, there'd be European alternatives as the price gap would be marginal.

[VS Omega]

...Exactly. With Audi/VW drivetrains do you think you could still afford a Commodore? If you could, there'd be European alternatives as the price gap would be marginal.

The drivetrain isn't the only differentiating factor between an Audi and a Holden... GM Holden's reputation is for building affordable cars with the most expensive coming in under $100,000aud (not affordable at that point). German car makers most expensive far exceed this mark.

[1991_Vn2nV]

The drivetrain isn't the only differentiating factor between an Audi and a Holden...

No obviously. But the rest of an Audi is generally alot better quality. Build quality, safety etc. So if the price gap is only small, what car do you think many will choose? The Audi parts in a cheaper Holden base with less features, inferior build quality and safety, or the Audi parts in an actual Audi...

But the drivetrain will be responsible for a substantial increase in price. As you'd know, german made engines and components are considerably more expensive than the V8's we use that are made in Mexico.

[VS Omega]

How would Holden go about getting it's V8 engines though. Wouldn't it loose access to the GM parts bin for future development?

It's been reported that HSV have been playing with a German makers engines, I'm sure Holden could buy the equipment to create these engines here in Australia -or- make a deal to purchase them from GM (if GM still makes them in as large batches as they are which they will because they've shot themselves in the foot making this new Camaro)

[minux]

pfft **** V8's, give me a well performing turbo 4 that packs loads of punch any day of the week. For anyone who has driven an evo X you will know what I mean, those things MUNCH anything holden has to offer and at only 70k for top of the range you get so much more car, just wish I was little smaller. Even R32 golfs are SOOOOOO much more fun to drive than any Holden 8.

[1991_Vn2nV]

GM Holden's reputation is for building affordable cars with the most expensive coming in under $100,000aud (not affordable at that point). German car makers most expensive far exceed this mark.

You don't seem to be getting what im saying. Under Audi/VW control using their parts, they won't be able to build affordable cars anymore.

Their components would be far more expensive which will effect the pricing of the car and put it out of reach of most Australian buyers, and more importantly, fleets.

With a Commodore taking a substantial increase in price, the difference in price between an Audi and a Commodore would be smaller and you may as well just buy an actual Audi and get the rest of the good gear that comes with it.

The problems with Holdens are not the V8's, its the rest of the car that tends to let it down when compared to its european counterparts.

[VS Omega]

You don't seem to be getting what im saying. Under Audi/VW control using their parts, they won't be able to build affordable cars anymore.

Their components would be far more expensive which will effect the pricing of the car and put it out of reach of most Australian buyers, and more importantly, fleets.

With a Commodore taking a substantial increase in price, the difference in price between an Audi and a Commodore would be smaller and you may as well just buy an actual Audi and get the rest of the good gear that comes with it.

The problems with Holdens are not the V8's, its the rest of the car that tends to let it down when compared to its european counterparts.

Then they need to make it lighter, if Holdens did become under another companies ownership they still have the facilities to build the Alloytech, strap on a turbo or supercharger (L67 style) and the problem's solved. Now if they didn't have the ability to put the alloytech in the Holden bodies for some reason then the price would go up like you're saying but not by too much, they wouldn't be sold as that brand but maintain Holden

[Reaper]

On a world scale though, Holden is not worth much money. When you look at how fast GM are burning through cash, Holden wouldn't cover a months losses to GM. Any short term gain would not be worth the long term loss, and it would not look good for the US Government after Holden was used as GM's example.

On a side note, GM are starting to make some much nicer cars at the moment. The Opel Insignia and Chevvy Malibu are prime examples of cars that are actually class leading in their regions for GM. Just a pity they are a few years too late.

GM have no choice but to look on a (very) short term time line right now. If they can get several years profit now then so be it. You do realize that the total market cap for GM is less than US$1billion right now. If they can get a few billion for Holden they can raise two or three times their total worth in cash in one hit. From memory they are burning around $1bil per month which will keep them out of the shitte for a little bit. It has come down to that for GM.

If it comes to that, Lets hope Holden can operate as normal. I don't mind Holden moving away from GM ownership. Infact it might be a better thing for Holden ?.

I don't know how Holden will last without a V8. Even for the people who don't buy V8's it still is part of the brand. The GM V8's are great for Holden - cheap reliable engines that go like stink. They are very interwoven. On the other hand, maybe a buyer could use it as an opportunity to introduce an engine as Holden could carry off the "premium" brand in Asia with their Zeta platform.

Reaper