Advanced Driver Training - Yes or No?

[thestig]

There seems to be some people in our society that believe that Advanced Driver Training is not helpful in reducing accidents.

I believe that such courses act in a number of ways, but most commonly;

1. Through the resultant increase in driver skill and awareness.

2. The inherent attitude change young drivers undergo during the courses.

How many people agree/disagree?

I am most interested in hearing about people who have actually undergone such courses.

How many people think they should be introduced as part of the high school curriculum??

L8r

P.S. For those amongst you that harbor intense feelings of paranoia and persecution. I am not in anyway associated with an advanced driving school, or any form of driver training advocacy group. I am someone who has undergone such a course and believe them to be beneficial to society at large.

[alien]

How many people think they should be introduced as part of the high school curriculum??

Well, you see, thta would be too difficult to implement into the school system! Driving courses are done in some schools, but only to get people to build up a few horus, and even still not in every school!

My school did that although one guy thoguht he was a cop and people that could drive got to pretend to be a cop and race around the learning area with others [OFF LEGAL ROADS btw]. Was done in the middle of moonee valley horse racing course.

I would be up for doing a advanced drivers course! AAMI have taken a good step, whre P Platers on fully comp can attend one free and get 10% off their premiums. Obviously AAMI see it as a good move that doesn't cost them more.

As for the course, we're talking DEFENSIVE right? Because there are other advanced driving courses e.g. Police and Escort (or VIP drivers) spring to my mind for reasons

[88GreenVN]

I think it would help the young drivers greatly. School of hard knocks can be a tragic one indeed, so anything that can avoid the dangerous years of silly driving is a good thing.

Doing an advanced course in driving would go along way to achieve better road/car educated young drivers.

[thestig]

Yes DEFENSIVE driver training.

I am not suggesting Police Persuit School, or CAMS or Super License, nothing like do Bathurst in a V8 Supercar or hot laps at Calder.

L8r

[Philthy]

I have done the level 1 Murcotts defensive driving course, and I have always thought these kinds of courses should be compulsary before getting yourr license.
The course I did was about 60:40 theory and driving, and concentrated on changing attitudes, rather than skills. The driving part was done in our own cars (after an inspection) and consisted of emergency braking and avoiding skills, as well as a slalom and a couple other exercises.
The theory included safe travelling distances, setting up a car properly (seating position, tyre pressures etc), some potentially confusing laws (roundabouts, merging, and some obscure situations that can occur)
I didn't come out of it feeling overconfident or invincible, like I thouoght I might. Instead, it hugely increased my awareness of the people and enviroment on the road around me, and did change my driving style in a few key ways

[Goon]

Yes to DEFENSIVE driver training!

But!! when the time comes will those skills kick in or not, some people also have tunnel vision and dont bother to look at the sides of whats coming towards them etc..

[minux]

Having done, defensive, advanced, technique, offensive driving courses I can say EVERY one of them has helped me on the road at some point.

Defensive technique courses should be compulsory for all licence tests. There should also be continuation courses to test reflexes, laws and defensive techniques for ALL drivers under 40 every 4 years. Over 40 every 2 years.

[Calaber]

I had been driving for four years when I did the Peter Wherret course at Amaroo Park in 1974. I had never though of myself as anything other than an average driver, and wanted to find out how skilled or unskilled I was, learn to drive more safely and "have a good time" for the day.

It didn't take long to realise that after only four years, I still had much to learn. I came away from the course having learnt two or three things I still use in my everyday driving, such as power-off mid corner to tighten the line of travel and reduce understeer. I think I was a (slightly) better and safer driver by the end of the day.

I would strongly support any driver undertaking this form of training, but feel that you have to have had a few years of on-road experience for it to be really beneficial. Including it as part of a school curriculum isn't appropriate, because pupils lack the necessary experience and basic driving skills that are essential BEFORE you learn more advanced skills.

[ashbox]

yes should be compulsory

[mas996]

i've done the defensive driving course at eastern creek. i think it can be beneficial, all it was, was hard breaking in different situations but still you learn a little.

i could see it as being VERY beneficial for someone who is only new to driving, to give them a feel of what its like and how the car acts in an emergency situation.

so it should be brought into schooling, or at least part of getting a license.

[commsirac]

The whole title of "advanced driving" invokes visions of heel and toeing, handbrake turns, opposite lock work in skid pans, getting through corners as fast as possible etc.

How many people come away from these courses still not knowing how many metres more their car needs to stop from 120km/h than at 100km/h?

Otherwise I believe all of that is counter productive to safe driving on normal roads.....and Im sure we've all heard of the stats out there to prove that accident rates of companies where they send their drivers on such courses actually go up after doing them.

I prefer courses that are preventative/defensive give people a real appreciation of the relationship between speed and stopping distance and how to interpret/anticipate many traffic situations are what we need, ie problems in following too close and also some education about overtaking, distance/room needed at 100km/h etc.

All of this is just "brain" stuff rather than any particular manual driving skills needed at the wheel.

The best skill that we can have is to avoid trouble in the 1st place, ie dont go into corners too fast in the 1st place, rather than a fistful of techniques that require the practiced skill of an ice rally driver to even give the situation a 10% chance of survival.

[pow3rslave]

i've thought about doing one, i think it's a really good idea, but my reason for not doing it is kind of retarded:
i heard they get you to do high speed gravel maneuvres and i don't want stone chips.
other than that, even if it's not free i think it's a good idea, i've heard people claim that it'll make young drivers overconfident, but i think that any driver with that mindset would think that way already.

[Philthy]

The whole title of "advanced driving" invokes visions of heel and toeing, handbrake turns, opposite lock work in skid pans, getting through corners as fast as possible etc.

How many people come away from these courses still not knowing how many metres more their car needs to stop from 120km/h than at 100km/h?

Otherwise I believe all of that is counter productive to safe driving on normal roads.....and Im sure we've all heard of the stats out there to prove that accident rates of companies where they send their drivers on such courses actually go up after doing them.

I prefer courses that are preventative/defensive give people a real appreciation of the relationship between speed and stopping distance and how to interpret/anticipate many traffic situations are what we need, ie problems in following too close and also some education about overtaking, distance/room needed at 100km/h etc.

All of this is just "brain" stuff rather than any particular manual driving skills needed at the wheel.

The best skill that we can have is to avoid trouble in the 1st place, ie dont go into corners too fast in the 1st place, rather than a fistful of techniques that require the practiced skill of an ice rally driver to even give the situation a 10% chance of survival.

The course I did involved emergency stops from 40, 45, 60 and 65km/h, and comparisons of reaction and stopping distances at each of those speeds, as well as similar collision avoidance exercises at those speeds

[Keepleft]

Defensive driving MP3 for you;-
http://www2.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr...2006_07_06.mp3

And this Pdf:-
http://www.securiteroutiere.gouv.fr/..._cle221c56.pdf

[wingwang99]

I did one about 2 weeks after i got my licence. And in the not even 3 years that i've been on my p's some of the things i have learnt have come in handy and potentially have saved maybe not my life, but accidents anyway.

Things like emergency braking and general hazard perception have helped me heaps. Not to mention skid control. I'm not the type to go out and do skids on purpose, but the industrial area that i work in has crap all over the road and it doesn't take much to lose it around a corner. I know if i hadn't done the course i would have crapped myself the few times its happened and potentially had an accident.

And to commsirac's comment, total crap. I know all my mates who have done these courses haven't come out with a big head, and none of them have had accidents, whereas other mates who don't know the limits of their car, or what to do when they are in a bad situation haven't had the same fate.

[commsirac]

And to commsirac's comment, total crap. I know all my mates who have done these courses haven't come out with a big head, and none of them have had accidents, whereas other mates who don't know the limits of their car, or what to do when they are in a bad situation haven't had the same fate.

So your limited data on what a few of your mates have done/not done tells us more than the many companies who have abandoned advanced driving courses for its employees because it increases their insurance claims.

[TVR-190]

So your limited data on what a few of your mates have done/not done tells us more than the many companies who have abandoned advanced driving courses for its employees because it increases their insurance claims.

do you have any data to back up these claims

[immortality]

here in NZ you can get 6 (or 9, can't remember)months taken off your time to get your full drivers license if you have completed and passed a accredited advanced driver training course. having said that our drivers lisense system still sucks and is more about making money then driver training/ability.

some form if skid pan training that involves cornering on a wet surface to learn to steer into a slide and emergency braking can only be beneficial. this is completely different to advanced driver training courses that involves improving your lap times around a racing circuit, as thestig has already clarified.

as a side note, there have been occasions where power (and therefore speed) has saved my bacon from been involved in a serious accident. knowing the limits of one's car and his/her abilities can be an advantage

[Philthy]

I went into mine knowing that I would possibly come out with a big head/overconfidence, but (to my surprise) I am actually more of a cautious driver now than I ever was - and I have always considered myself to be a fairly cautious kind of guy.

I don't know about any of that political insurance beaurocratical bullshit some people live their lives by, I just go by my own experiences

[Jesterarts]

1. I think you should add a poll. ADD A POLL!! ADD A POLL!!

2. Yes I think there should be more driver training...

At the moment people are allowed on the roads having never been in a situation where the car is about to loose control or has already lost control. It's good because it actually teachs car control rather than driving rules.

Should definately make it a mandantory part of learning how to drive...

I always... ALWAYS say that the testing and training here is a joke... being allowed to drive a car is taken too lightly... and that's how we end up with people either killing themselves or others because they lack the skills.

Obviously, there are alot of wankers out there also... that no matter how much you educate them they will still drive like wankers.

Harshed penalties would weed them out but thats another story.

Once I find some spare time and coin I intent on going through some driver training courses and also getting my gf to do them.

But at the end of the day... doesn't matter how good you are on the roads... because there is alwasy someone who doesn't know wtf they are doing that can wipe you out...

Everyone on the roads needs to be upto a certain level of competance... at the moment you never know...

[immortality]

But at the end of the day... doesn't matter how good you are on the roads... because there is alwasy someone who doesn't know wtf they are doing that can wipe you out...

Everyone on the roads needs to be upto a certain level of competance... at the moment you never know...

thats what i fear the most.

[Jesterarts]

Well that's it... I've been in 2 accidents... and each time it was the other drivers judgement or rather lack of it that caused it...

Once I t-boned a car that pulled out from a side street and the other time, just last year, I had a chick in a FWD just change lanes onto me... I was lucky i had a turning lane to escape into after bouncing off her otherwise it would have been a tree, head on at 80kmph.

Also lucky my car is actually capable of pulling up fairly quickly.

And some of the things I see on the roads... people seem to have MAJOR issues with round abouts and merging...

Had some idiot stop dead at the end of a merging lane onto a freeway... lucky the freeway was clear of traffic and I just merged into a lane to avoid what would have been a messy crash...

One minute the car in front is a distance away... accelerating and almost at the merge point... I turn my head to check to find a spot for me to slot in and by the time i look back ahead there is a car stopped dead infront of me... no way in hell i would have pulled up... by the time my foot would have reached the brake I would have been in their back seat making my way into the front seat.

And round abouts... they are a brilliant thing... you just have to worry about one thing... cars to your right... otherwise you go... its bloody simple... and the number of times I've had people pull out infront of me or stop IN the round about and try to give way to car on their LEFT??? WHY??? you're not being a good or safe driver... just because you think you're being a saint letting people on the left in for no reason doesn't mean you're a good driver... because all of a sudden you're causing a un anticipated hazard on the road... an un-expected condition...

Basically like stopping at a green light... the people behind you know know wtf you are doing and the people you are trying to let in don't know wtf you are doing...

This is how collisions happen... when people do un-expected things that others on the road can't make sense of.

[minux]

^^^Since when do you give way to your right on round-a-bouts?

[Philthy]

^^^Since when do you give way to your right on round-a-bouts?

If everyone did advanced/defensive driving courses people would know things like that

[commsirac]

do you have any data to back up these claims

Sure, but have you got any to back up yours, of course not....because there isnt any.

But heh, that doesnt stop all these people who have done the courses telling us it will make the world safer, who are they to stop a few facts getting in the way. Unfortunately the evidence says its just as effective as Brockie's polariser.

have a look at:
DRIVER TRAINING REVIEW
APPENDIX M
COVER SHEET
Defensive driving schools, Driving School, Driver safety program, CDTA, Melbourne, Australia, even though it is a private organization, it does speak looking at the facts
VicRoads Review of Driver Training Programs 7
A review of the literature found that various road safety authorities and researchers have been unable to find evidence of a link between car driving skills and road trauma. Driving skill deficiencies have been found relevant in less than 5% of crashes.
Post-licence driver training courses may be divided into three categories. These are:
• Defensive driving courses which aim to help any involved driver or rider avoid getting into critical situations;
• Advanced driving courses which aim to help any involved driver or rider cope with critical situations; and
• Driver improvement programs which specifically target accident or violation involved drivers.
Reviews of evaluation studies have found no evidence that either advanced or defensive driving courses reduce the accident involvement of those who attend.
Even when targeted at drivers over-involved in accidents no significant reductions in accident involvement results. Such training has occasionally been found to reduce traffic offence involvement but there is no reliable evidence that this translates into accident reductions or even persists in the long term.
It may be concluded that the road safety value of these particular programs is questionable.
Victorian studies of both novice and advanced driving courses also found no evidence of accident reductions.
A study of a mixed defensive/ advanced driver training course for novice drivers in Adelaide found no accident reduction benefits. This is consistent with evaluations of driver training/ education programs in New Zealand. Indeed, it has been found that following voluntary attendance at a skill-oriented, advanced driver training course in Sydney those trained recorded increases in traffic convictions, particularly for speeding. 8 This is a disturbing though not unexpected finding and is consistent with the findings of another Australian study and the findings of the largest driver training study ever undertaken (De Kalb County, USA).
New South Wales Review of Californian Driver Improvement Program for