VE commodore laps the ring in 8:30

[immortality]

was just reading that a VE commodore in pontiac GTO guise with a rolcage lapped the "ring" in 8minutes and 30 seconds. thats only 2 seconds slower then a BMW e49 M5. a car that costs 3 times more the the VE.

one must wonder what a E series HSV would do, especially a W427 (which is still substancially cheaper then the BMW)

[Reaper]

was just reading that a VE commodore in pontiac GTO guise with a rolcage lapped the "ring" in 8minutes and 30 seconds. thats only 2 seconds slower then a BMW e49 M5. a car that costs 3 times more the the VE.

one must wonder what a E series HSV would do, especially a W427 (which is still substancially cheaper then the BMW)

GTO or G8? The GTO was based on the Aus Monaro which ceased production several years go.

Doubt the E series would be much faster - the G8 gets a motor much closer to the HSV spec here. Brakes would be somewhat better on the HSV though.

Reaper

[immortality]

yeah, sorry G8 model. still not bad for a commodore either way

[minux]

lol, rollcage? Fair bit of help in stiffening the car and then comparing it to a car that is now over 6 years old(I am presuming you mean the E39?) Seriously, that is GM holding onto something that isn't there.

The E60 M5(80k USD) lapped in 8:13 in off the street trim. The GXP(38k USD) that lapped was a development mule, so who can ever trust the figures?
Regardless, I would much rather a beautifully crafted euro machine than some slapped together Australian car, lets see a time in off the street trim, no doubt it would be closer to the 9 minute mark.

[immortality]

so you drive a "slapped together" aussie car. why not sell it and get some Euro trash then that you always seem to rave about.

[minux]

so you drive a "slapped together" aussie car. why not sell it and get some Euro trash then that you always seem to rave about.

I do drive a slapped together Aussie car, I wont buy euro( I only want an M5) until I can pay cash for it, no way in hell i am financing any car I own.

No need to get so defensive though, I know you love your Commodores, seriously though, calling cars "euro trash" just shows how you think.

[MasterOfReality]

I do drive a slapped together Aussie car, I wont buy euro( I only want an M5) until I can pay cash for it, no way in hell i am financing any car I own.

No need to get so defensive though, I know you love your Commodores, seriously though, calling cars "euro trash" just shows how you think.

Yeah I was gonna say, the euro trash part is a tad bit ignorant, considering the Germans take automotive engineering very seriously. The amount of power they can develop from smaller V8's and straight six donks, without resorting to underpowered 6-7 litre lumps is astounding. You only need to sit in a VW Golf or Audi A3 to realise the superior build quality they can produce compared to any GM product.

Street trim M5 versus development mule with roll cage

[immortality]

funny really, but i lived in europe, and BMW's are there what holdens are here. nothing fancy. everyman and his dog will drive a BMW one year and then trade it for the Merc the next depending on what wins car of the year over there. i actually like BMW's just as you do, i think the M5 is a great car. however it's seriously overpriced and comparing anyhting in the "M" series to a standard commodore is no comparison. you would really have to compare it to say a high spec HSV because that is exactly what the M series is

[MasterOfReality]

They are over priced here because of import taxes (thats why a lot more people are able to buy them overseas) and this rediculous notion about protecting the local industry. Thats one of the main reasons why Holden has poorly engineered and put together cars compared to other manufacturers.

Remove the taxes and dollar for dollar the Euro's take the prize.

[Calaber]

Yeah I was gonna say, the euro trash part is a tad bit ignorant, considering the Germans take automotive engineering very seriously. The amount of power they can develop from smaller V8's and straight six donks, without resorting to underpowered 6-7 litre lumps is astounding. You only need to sit in a VW Golf or Audi A3 to realise the superior build quality they can produce compared to any GM product.

Street trim M5 versus development mule with roll cage

Having experienced a Mark V Golf from brand new, there are a couple of points I would like to make.

There can be no denying the standards of engineering achieved by the Germans, out of all the Euro manufacturers - in my opinion, Germany is heads and shoulders above France, Italy,Britain etc.

But from my experience, which obviously has since ceased, I was disappointed with various quality control issues.

In two and a half years, the Golf, a 2 litre FSI Comfortline manual, suffered the following faults.

1. Brake switch failure twice. The second time, I was fortunate that a replacement was available - the fault was so common that stocks were exhausted in Aus at that time. The first switch would not activate the brake lights unless you flattended the brake pedal to stop. Not adjustable, naturally. The second switch would short out at night when the temperature dropped, leaving the brake lights on for hours. Resulted in a flat battery - not impressed. By this time, Golf's lustre was wearing thin. Replaced under warranty.

2. Rear electric window switch failure - faulty from day one. Warranty.

3. Faulty trim on front passenger door. Warranty.

4. Persistent knocking sound when clutch was depressed, particularly noticeable at idle. Never attended to despite repeated requests. It turned out that this noise is common to all manual 2 litre Golfs. Hardly acceptable in my opinion. One of the reasons the car was traded.

5. Constant gear clash when changing from second to first at very low speeds. This was a common exercise because of the number of bloody roundabouts in this area. The car had little bottom end torque and as you had to almost stop so frequently, first gear was necessary. Crunch, crunch, crunch, nearly every time. Not fixed. The real reason the car was traded.

6. Ill fitting trim around rear window. Broken or bent clips during manufacture. Warranty.

7. Absolutely pathetic AM radio reception only 50 km from Sydney, because of the stupid aerial being stuck on the rear window. I noticed not long after selling our car that the factory had reverted to a whip aerial on later Golfs. And yes, I do listen to AM - can't stand the pathetic simpering of the male/female combos that the FM stations use for announcers/d.j.'s.


That was all within the 32 months we owned the car. It was bought brand new. A disappointing experience.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

[MasterOfReality]

Yeah Calaber, I also read that some of the Golfs have been a bit dodgy, yet the German assembled R32's have been fine.

[immortality]

i think all cars have there faults. the fact is the luxury tax on cars effects the HSV models just as much as any other car (i think it adds something like 30k to a W427)

i beleive the e39 M5 comparison is used mainly because it has very similar power and weight figures and therefore comparible: E39 400hp Vs 307kw E series HSV, 1720kg E39 Vs 1800kg + E series HSV e39 6speed box etc (using HSV figures cause i don't know the weights of the G8, 1998 - 2003 BMW E39 M5 - Images, Specifications and Information for M5 specs

[minux]

i think all cars have there faults. the fact is the luxury tax on cars effects the HSV models just as much as any other car (i think it adds something like 30k to a W427)

i beleive the e39 M5 comparison is used mainly because it has very similar power and weight figures and therefore comparible: E39 400hp Vs 307kw E series HSV, 1720kg E39 Vs 1800kg + E series HSV e39 6speed box etc (using HSV figures cause i don't know the weights of the G8, 1998 - 2003 BMW E39 M5 - Images, Specifications and Information for M5 specs

LCT is on all cars over a certain price, Australia governments also tax on imports over certain prices etc etc.

You can buy an M5 in the US for equivalent of 112k AUD. Somehow though, Australia has to charge some 240k for an M5, this is a mix up of country mark up plus import tax + luxury car tax.

[Full Spectrum]

Minux that's like the u.s charges 25k USD for a 50k AUD plus SSV.

I do drive a slapped together Aussie car, I wont buy euro( I only want an M5) until I can pay cash for it, no way in hell i am financing any car I own.

No need to get so defensive though, I know you love your Commodores, seriously though, calling cars "euro trash" just shows how you think.

You shouldn't worry about the M5. Get yourself an aston DBS. Grab a Taxi for the family and enjoy your aston.

[minux]

Minux that's like the u.s charges 25k USD for a 50k AUD plus SSV.

Well that almost makes sense, as the USD buys more for their dollar. Still the price should not be any less than what the exchange rate is.

For too long governments have allowed the locals to monopolise the industry, they have been propped up with our taxes and yet still rape us with stupidly high prices. Its why people should just buy second hand, **** the local makers.

You shouldn't worry about the M5. Get yourself an aston DBS. Grab a Taxi for the family and enjoy your aston.

I'd love an Aston, but after being lucky enough to drive an 08 E60, it has made me want one more than ever.

[Full Spectrum]

Well that almost makes sense, as the USD buys more for their dollar. Still the price should not be any less than what the exchange rate is.

For too long governments have allowed the locals to monopolise the industry, they have been propped up with our taxes and yet still rape us with stupidly high prices. Its why people should just buy second hand, **** the local makers.

As the prices stand now is what we should be paying right ?. 33k for a SV6.

I'll go second hand for ever, few thousand km's on a near new car thousands cheaper it's wonderful.

I'd love an Aston, but after being lucky enough to drive an 08 E60, it has made me want one more than ever.

Lucky bugger..

I been doing some car trips with some mates interstate over the last few years. They love the Euro cars a few are from overseas. We never attend a Mercedes or BMW show room, They feel they are taxis. Much in the same way we look at our local cars. But i wouldn't class a M5 a taxi.

[Calaber]

I'm not so sure that our prices for locally produced cars are really all that excessive. I have often read reports that indicate our local cars are better equipped and better value for what they offer than many foriegn vehicles do in their homeland.

I think the only significant country where cars are truly cheap by world standards is the US. Euro cars in Europe are not cheap and British prices amaze me at times.

Back in 2000, I passed a Mercedes dealership in Hampshire that had the A180? Excellence? parked outside, brand new. The price was over 15 thousand quid. I did a quick calculation at the existing exchange rate (37p to the dollar at that time) and the price was a bit more in Aussie dollars than the car sold for here. Other cars were also expensive when you did the conversion, and their depreciation on larger vehicles was bloody frightening. A Vauxhall sedan (can't think of the name) 1992 - Commodore equivalent, sold for 800 quid (about $2500). At that time, a VP would stil lhave been worth around 8-9 k at least. Other late model cars were dirt cheap - they just dropped like a rock. Compared to them, our depreciation rates looked pretty good.

I obtained a catalogue of prices of the current 'Vauxhall range (which unfortunately, I don't have now), but when our Calais was around $45k, the top Omega was over 32k in pounds - a huge difference in our favour.

I think our local cars (Commies and Falcons) are reasonable value for the standard of vehicle they present today. They are a huge improvement over say a 2000 model of the same make and it is obvious that they are trying to compete on the world stage. Commodores are highly regarded in the US and the Middle East - hell, even the petrol head poms like the VRX8, just hate its consumption. Sure, the materials used internally could be much better and the finish is still not as good as the Japs for example, but it is improving. The quality gap isn't anything like what it once was. I think the biggest problem with locals today is the lack of reliability with electrical systems. That certainly seems to be the case with the VE, at least.

[immortality]

overall, the new chassis developed by Holden is a good bit of kit. some of the finishing may be questionable the the basics are definitly right.

i believe this is the model used for the testing 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP - Specifications, Pictures, Prices

[greenfoam]

Not bad time but I think the VY-VZ based car isn't any slower around there

[(CODEZ)]

yeah i read about that in street commodores, cant really compare a commo to a euro car but its a time to be proud of for holden lovers