186/202 project
i am intrested in building a 186 or possibly a 202 now i know this is a very hard question to answer, with extensive work such as cam, crank balancing, head, manifold, pistons ect what sort of hp can u produce from a naturally aspirated 186 or 202. i ask this because i have been told that a 186 will produce more power and rev harder, but i have also been told u can get more power out of a 202 finally if anyone has a suggested build and estimated cost i would love to hear it thnx.
oh almost forgot can a 186 legally be fitted to a commy (another thing i have heard many different answers to)
No much power by todays standards but they still go alright in a LC or LJ Torana, 200hp+ is pretty achievable. The 202 will make the most power (it's bigger) but some people prefer the 186 for whatever reason other people prefer the 179 etc but in the end the more cubes the better. As for what is legal in what, that will depend what fuel you are running, where you live, what Commodore you have and who looks at it. But even a early Commodore is really too heavy for a performance 202
I dont see why it would be illegal to remove your 202 crank and fit a similar 173 one and swap the pistons for 186 ones.can a 186 legally be fitted to a commy
mate if ya goin naturally aspirated def get the 202 if possible get it out of a vk calais with the fuel injection. and if ya want a performance car, start stripping anything un necessary out to reduce weight!
good luck!
Yeah, get rid of any un-necessary crap you don't need. I've even got rid of all the anti-pollution crap under my bonnet. EFI's not too bad, but triples are definately the way to go if you can afford it!. I'm running a 60thou over 3.3 blue engine with triple SU's and a crow 35666 cam. Since i've done these mod's, i've never looked back. and even though the Vk's supposedly too heavy for a 202, it sure puts out a lot of power & doesn't feel the weight. If anything, i've had to slow it down with bigger tyres just to keep it almost streetable. Hard not to wheelspin with even the slightest amount of pedal movement. damn fast and hard to beat. VK EFI's can't catch her!. Leaves em' for dead!. Great for a 6.
Cheers!
To try and help answer your questions:
The 186 or even 202 red motor is nowhere near as well balanced as well as a stock 3.3 Blue or black motor. Nor does it have the cylinder head port flow. The dis-advantage with the 186 block, as that you've got no piston options. You're stuck with the one type unfortunately. 186's put out more power - Not even close. They have to rev harder and at a higher range to produce the same output, and they don't have the good torque/power curve that a 202 has. Red motors are factory balanced to around 5,500 RPM, whilst Blue/Black motors are balanced to 7,000RPM+. Kind of takes away the need for high-speed balancing. My advice for you is to get a blue/black engine and start from there. The bigger displacement and better head port flow will be an advantage. A factory blue/black 12-port head is equivalent to the port flow on an XU-1 bathurst head. If you think the blue/black engine is shit because it's bogged down with all the anti-pollution gear, then get rid of the gear and don't be too keen to blame the engine for the problems that accessories have. I find the best thing to do is kill as much anti-pollution gear as possible and think old school. BTW what sort of commodore are you intending on putting this motor into? If it's an old VB-VK then obviously it wouldn't be smart to run a 186 in there, and IMO wouldn't recommend or waste my time with it anyhow. If your car has power steering and air-conditioning I would probably get that out of the way. Remove all its associated gear from the engine bay, including feed pipes. Use the old red laternator bracket for basics, and also the fact if you ever need to get to the alternator it's right in front you you without anything in the way. Run rack and pinnion steering and get rid of the factory fan/clutched fan and go thermatic. If you do that alone, you will see some improvement. If you are running a VK with EST, disconnect the EST wiring and run a normal HEI distributor. I'd go for one of those $80 specials on ebay. Believe it or not, they actually work a treat and don't have 30 years of wear like the old Bosch ones do and because they don't have the excessive wear they're timing is much more accurate and not out of sync. Replacing the dummy distributor will allow you to tune your engine, and you'll be able to get some more power gains there. Also stay away from cheapie spark plugs. Use something like champion copper plugs, as they have a resistive core which helps stop electrode burn-out. This is very evident on plugs like NGK and other cheapies. Also note that a lot of these cheap and nasty plugs will seize up in the plug holes and you'll damn-near have to remove the cylinder head to get these bastards out. It's happened to me with NGK on an old VH with a blue head, and also my old man with his 83' Honda Accord. Ever installed a set of plugs into an early commodore, started the engine and withing 3-5 minutes everything "idling" turns to shit? there's your answer!. Carbie options. You could play with just about anything, but for something mild it's entirely up to you. A 350 holley is a good upgrade for an old red motor, but doesn't perform as well as the varajet II on the VC/VH/VK commodore. a 500 Holley doesn't really perform any better than a 350 Holley, so I wouldn't waste my time there either. You could run a ford ADM but don't expect it to work straight off without some professional work, unless you happen to get one off the factory Ford 3.3 motors. If you could do that, then get an adaptor kit, bolt the thing on then you're laughing. Should get better running over the varajet and better economy. If you run the varajet, use a good aftermarket open element aircleaner, or cut out around the sides of the factory one to allow it to breathe. The factory air cleaners have been proven to be very detrimental to the engine performance. A whopping 20HP has been found to be lost to the engine just by using a factory air cleaner for these. It it was me, i'd go for triple SU's but not everyone has the knowhow, cash or ability to set these up.
Answer to another question: "can you legally run a 186 in a commodore". It depends on the model really. You'd probably get away with it in a VB commodore but that's about it, however you'd have to use the factory VB Commodore running gear. There's no way you'd get away with one in a VC/VH/VK, unless the copper or transport cop who pulled you over was blind. lol. Although here in Tas you could get away with just about anything, except for when they do the odd transport blitz, and even then they won't pop the bonnet unless they have a real good reason to do so.
Suggested Build and Cost:
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Use a 3.3 blue/black motor - It's gonna save you a lot of coin if you can do it all yourself. Get it bored out to 20, 40 or 60 thou. Go for the smallest bore-out possible, so if you ever have to re-do it years down the track, you can. Also, get it decked for zero clearance. Helps boost the compression a few points. Get some hypereutectic pistons to suit. These are great for long engine life and low bore wear. A good machinist will be able to do valve reliefs for you at the top of the bores for around an extra $200 or if you've got a good aircomressor, a die grinder and an afternoon you could do it yourself.
Cost: Pistons might be around $400 and the bore work may be around $400-$500 for a real good job.
Head - A basic rebuild will do the trick. Make sure the machinist replaces all of the valve stem guides, and stay away from those cheap and nasty brass inserts "K-lines" if you can help it. Replacing the guides will help give a better idle, and prevent your motor from blowing smoke.
Cost: From $300 upwards depending on how far you want to go.
You're also going to need timing gears, so go for the JP hellical ones. Years back I done auto mechanics at tafe and they'd always recommended we use hellical gears, as they slog-out a lot less and there's more surface area on the gear teeth to displace the load on. Also a lot less likely to snap a tooth.
Cost: Under $100, but you may need a machinist to press the gears on, and while he's doing that get your old connecting rods pressed on to the hyper pistons.
Camshaft. Crow have a good range. Crow 35666 works reasonably well on most carbies, but works a treat on triples. an XU-1 road/street cam would also work nicely but in the long run it's upto yourself to decide what's best. I'm a skater not an actor. I'll always go for the grind, not the stage. lol. While we're on camshafts, always get brand new lifters to suit. I like hydraulic lifters because of their quiet operation.
Cost: Camshaft Under $300. Lifters under $100 on ebay and other places.
Gaskets - ACL race gasket sets are great to use, and the head gaskets with these are quite good!
Cost: Around $130 on ebay
Water, oil and fuel pump. For the oil pump i'd just go for a JP standard replacement.
Cost: Oil pump $130. Water Pump $50, Fuel Pump $40
I think this almost wraps things up, but when you do your build be sure to use an engine assembly lube on all the bearings, in the bores, on the timing gears, on the cam lobes and lifters and cam bearings and also on the rocker gears. I always use loctite nut locker on the connecting rod threads, as this is usually how these motors pop a piston. Always use a torque wrench to torque up all bolts to correct settings. Always use a good amount of non hardening sealant on the head bolts, otherwise you'll weep heaps of water. Make sure the oil filter is well primed up before first starting after an overhaul, the carbie is primed with fuel for a quick start and you should be right to go.
Hopefully this will help give you some insight and useful information for your build
Cheers Mate!
James.
"..of mice and men.."
I've always been told the 186 always used to be the favourite 'back in the day' for a revy, racey engine, particularly great in smaller lighter cars like the Torri, and especially when fitted with a twin or triple carb set-up, because it would rev out quicker than the 202, getting to 'it's' peak power quicker.
But 186 didn't actually have the lower down or overall power and torque output available from the 202.
But as far as what's legal in a Commodore, as far as I am aware the only Commy that was ever factory fitted with a Red motor was the VB, all the rest were Blue or Black motors to meet tighter pollution laws, which you will also have to meet if you wish to register your project as a road car.
So say, if your project is for a VC, VH or a VK(the last Commy factory fitted with a Holden 6), go with a Blue or Black 173 or 202, so as to get less legal hassles about meeting pollution requirements, although I have heard the Black motor is the better one.
On the 7th day, God created Holden, then on the 8th day, God created Ford, to keep idiots out of Holden's.
Originally Posted by destiny
yep i agree! go the black 202!i know alot of ppl say the blue is better because it dont got so much polution shit but once ya got it regoed just **** all the anti polution stuff off and ya be all sweet! i love my black 202 its efi which makes it very responsive! have fun!
don't be too hasty to remove the pollution gear.
for starters, if you happen to get defected for it, it can cost you a lot of money in most states.
second, contrary to popular belief - the majority of pollution devices fitted to these engines did not have a negative effect on performance.
The main killer was the EGR valve, which circulated exhaust gas back into the combustion chamber. Not a good thing for obvious reasons. And if you had the 2.85 or VK engine, you had the air pump.
Apart from that, the remaining pollution devices only retarded ignition advance and full throttle whilst the engine was cold. Unless you plan on flogging a cold engine, then it's not going to be a problem. Once it was up to operating temp, the engine operated like any other pre-emissions engine. What primarily killed the performance of these engines was the low compression used in an effort to meet emissions standards at the time. Most of them were in the low 8's as compared to low to mid 9's used in the reds.
My suggestion is, keep the EGR valve fitted, but plug the line. And as for the rest of the emissions gear, make sure it is in proper working condition & adjustment and it won't affect the performance of the engine at normal operating temps.
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