And here we go

[Jxfwsf]

The car drives better (which isn't hard as the front shocks removed were the originals from 88)

Well it's a work in progress, I'm not happy with the steering/handling.... after an alignment it's very doughy and slow to react turning (at least it doesn't tramline on the freeway like it used to, same tires and springs as before), seems to have reduced the turning circle... which is a bugger for doing Ubolts.

Need to do something about the camber... -3°30' and that's the most i could get out of it (at least it's even left and right, guess i cut those top plates pretty damn close to each other)
Caster could be a problem..... just doesn't self center to my liking, tracks straight when the wheel is let go so there's a bonus.



Rob, currently the rear brakes are just the std VN discs, the fronts do most of the work anyway but I will be looking into putting the VT rear caliper and rotor's on but at a later date (It can be done and there are adapters out there already but I'm more the type to see if i can manufacture this sort of thing myself)


Crunching the numbers:

A: Distance between shocker shaft:
B: Distance between shock shafts and firewall
C: Distance between shock shaft and lip on guard

VR/VS:
A: 110cm
B: 22.5cm
C: 18.5

VN with this hybrid setup:
A: 103.5cm
B: 27cm
C: 21.5

From underneath... the distance between the center off the ball joint to the tie rod mount on the steering knuckle is 1.5cm longer on the VT... Will chase up some VR/VS parts to replace this, assuming they changed some other angles here also so may not need the VT rackend/tierods (If the hub/bearing assembly can be interchanged) this should make a difference to the slack steering response and liven it up a bit (all other important measurements were the same.

 

[wortus]

Just a few thoughts;
Have you thought about cutting the VR/VS tops with the centre hole off set to increase castor and reduce camber? I know they are not flat and can't be pressed so maybe make some from scratch?
Or is it possible to put VR/VS towers into a VN/VP?
From memory the length of the rack gear should be about the same as the distance between lower control arm pivots so if you moved these pivots in would you need to shorten the rack gear?

 

[delcowizzid]

why did you not just bolt it all in ive been tuning a vh with v6 turbo and it has all late model struts stock vb-vn tops standard track width and perfect wheel alignment no cutting welding or hole relocation doesnt even have new rack ends

 

[Jxfwsf]

More differences:
Rackends, from left to right VN, VS, VT(s1) all different lengths.

By the time this is finished and so far the parts used have cost me pretty much nothing, it's all about working out what will and won't fit.

Just a few thoughts;
Have you thought about cutting the VR/VS tops with the centre hole off set to increase castor and reduce camber? I know they are not flat and can't be pressed so maybe make some from scratch?
Or is it possible to put VR/VS towers into a VN/VP?
From memory the length of the rack gear should be about the same as the distance between lower control arm pivots so if you moved these pivots in would you need to shorten the rack gear?

Looked at cutting them offset but the VN tower has a large lip on it that was higher than the vr/vs plates, didn't want to grind it off, this way the rubber ring sits perfectly on it and doesn't seem to foul.
I doubt it'd remove the -3 degrees camber, other problem is pushing the top of the wheel out further is not an option, i've heard the tires hit the guard a couple of times while tuning into driveways a couple of times now faster than normal.
Looked into making some but have yet to get a chance to price strong enough metal (or make a prototype and talk to a couple of engineering places to see if it's cost effective), would still require machining tools to press the raised middle section and would have to weld the bearing support to the new top part, only went this option because that was the materials i had to work with at the time, there are aftermarket tops available but they are pricey.
A lot of work changing towers, not molesting the cars body.
VR/VS rackends are longer than VB-VP (got my hands on one from a VS today and just lined them up side by side)

why did you not just bolt it all in ive been tuning a vh with v6 turbo and it has all late model struts stock vb-vn tops standard track width and perfect wheel alignment no cutting welding or hole relocation doesnt even have new rack ends

Because the VB-VP standard strut tops will not fit VR-VY struts as previously mentioned (a few aftermarket ones i enquired about would not fit either).
What struts are you using? I tried to put it all together and have written this thread about the adventures, it's not just a simple bolt in swap.
The other thing was to get away from the VB-VP strut tops, the newer bearing setup is better.

 

[VPRob]

I did a measure on my VP and shock shaft centre to centre is 105.5cm. I think the distance to firewall is 24cm. Difference in these from your measurements above can be accounted for by the off-set mounting of the shock top in the (original type) strut tops.
When I first had an alignment done on this car it had strut tops with a central mount (like the pic Hi Ryder has recently posted in the VN strut top post. My local Pedders explained to me that the off-set ones should be on my VP and that they allow for better alignment options and are always installed to move the strut top out a little wider (towards the guard) and a significant distance back towards the firewall. However even with this off-set you may still be unable to get the settings you want as long as you persist with the wider track.
2 thoughts occur to me: could you install VP lower control arms which you have said are shorter? (I don't know if they can be fitted with the VT struts) thus bringing the track in and reducing the excess camber. Alternatively, could you modify the hole in the strut tower to allow the strut tops to be mounted with more castor and less camber? There is a fair bit of room inside the top of the tower it seems to me. Only catch is you might have to start again with a new set of VR/VS strut tops and I would understand some reluctance to modify the strut tower itself.

 

[Jxfwsf]

I did a measure on my VP and shock shaft centre to centre is 105.5cm. I think the distance to firewall is 24cm. Difference in these from your measurements above can be accounted for by the off-set mounting of the shock top in the (original type) strut tops.
When I first had an alignment done on this car it had strut tops with a central mount (like the pic Hi Ryder has recently posted in the VN strut top post. My local Pedders explained to me that the off-set ones should be on my VP and that they allow for better alignment options and are always installed to move the strut top out a little wider (towards the guard) and a significant distance back towards the firewall. However even with this off-set you may still be unable to get the settings you want as long as you persist with the wider track.
2 thoughts occur to me: could you install VP lower control arms which you have said are shorter? (I don't know if they can be fitted with the VT struts) thus bringing the track in and reducing the excess camber. Alternatively, could you modify the hole in the strut tower to allow the strut tops to be mounted with more castor and less camber? There is a fair bit of room inside the top of the tower it seems to me. Only catch is you might have to start again with a new set of VR/VS strut tops and I would understand some reluctance to modify the strut tower itself.

Yes the off-set strut tops should be used in VB-VP, but very very rarely can you match camber and caster with them (unless the body is dead straight and not bent at all and the rest of the front suspension components are in the same as new state), they offer 3 positions and essentially rough enough is good enough, quite often they are still out and can't match the camber without sacrificing caster.... you could put extra washers in the caster bars to even it out but it's an outdated 80's setup with bugger all adjustment with oem parts, you only want to pay $50 for an alignment not the extra labor charge to have the bloke spend hours on getting it perfect right?

I have thought about changing the mounts to be offset but..... due to the tires already hitting the guards when turning and pulling into park/driveways with the lowered springs (lowest point of the underside is about 105mm just over legal limit) over gutters, potholes and tree roots.... this would only make it worse (it hasn't marked the tires or guards just makes a small noise, i could roll the guard lip but this is more work).
Reducing the track slightly and changing over to VR/VS rack ends with the VR/VS steering knuckle parts will sort out the camber.
Caster is still to be worked on (maybe i shouldn't have put b/new caster rods in and remained using the old original most likely bent ones... lol, not) this part isn't a major concern, as much as i like to let go of the wheel after turning a corner and have it straighten up by itself i can live with having to deal with some more user input.

(optical illusion, they are both pretty much the same size, left is not bigger than the right, except the backing plate, that is bigger on the left)

From all the basic measurements the only difference so far is the red lines, a difference of about 1.5cm, this should fix the steering issue.

As for changing towers... it'd be better to put VT towers in (wouldn't need the top plate as this is integrated into the VT tower) but way to much work involved and this would be changing important structural integrity requiring an engineers cert.



[EDIT 8/12]
Some more tinkering, the VT (S1) bearing/hub bolts up perfectly to VR/VS (ABS) steering knuckle assembly, if you have a VR/VS IRS car and you're wheel bearings are due for replacement then going with VT S1 you can basically put VT rotors and calipers straight on without any spacer ring to centralise the rotor (Live axle ABS will not work due to the tooth count, non abs will require the VT non abs hub/bearing as there is no hole for the sensor connection) VT s1 part number is different to VT s2/VX/VY/VZ so not sure what changes were made or compatibility.

At a later date will rip the K-frame out of the junker and drill the lca mount bolt 15mm inwards, will increase the vn/vp track by 10mm and hopefully fix the camber (or change it to fit eccentric washers and bolt for more accurate adjustments, should be enough play in the castor rod bushes to accommodate this, may even introduce the front urethane bushes to the bench grinder and add another washer to pull the wheel forward for more caster if needed).

I don't think the caster is negative. Looking at the struts it's definitely positive, pretty sure the wheel aligner just got confused with the wrong steering arm length on VR/VS settings.

Got the new bits in and there is excessive toe out, VT rackends have enough room to fix this (K-frame not changed yet).

 

[Jxfwsf]

So far, parts used:

Modified VR/VS strut plates
Some random VN springs (335mm from hub center to guard lip)
Lowered struts
VS (pedders z-bar) caster rods along with some polyurethane bushes i had sitting on the shelf
VR/VS steering knuckle (removal of the dust cover is needed to fit the bigger rotors and brakes, do this while the wheel bearing is removed)
VR/VS lower control arms
VT S1 rackends and tierods
VT S1 wheel bearing/hub
VT rotors and brake caliper
VT Booster and MC.

Camber/caster still need work (atleast they're basically even) but it handles/reacts and drives in 50km/h to 110km/h quite well, changing the steering arm length has made a huge difference, it almost self centers after corners but needs the last ****tenth correction to go dead straight but doesn't wander/track badly after that (it's heavier on the steering than it used to be when it should be lighter with less caster *shrugs* can still drive it with 1 finger easily though).

Tires still hit the guard if going over a decent bump (driveway) at faster than normal speeds but it's less than before with the vr/vs steering arm length.

Next step replacing the arse end bushes, springs, shocks, VR/VS diff and looking at VT rear brakes, get the ABS working.
Adding 2 more cylinders and installing modified kframe to address the camber/track issues as it currently has an increase in track that is more than acceptable under modifications allowed

Will probably try stock struts and springs in another car in the near future as I'm curious to see what specs that would come out with.

 

[Jxfwsf]

I got bored

Now i could've got a ruler out and made some measurements but that'd be no fun..

Can you put vb-vp strut and lca into a VT/VX??

Not as easy as putting the newer struts into an earlier body it seems.

Needed to get rid of that pesky bearing mount, damn spot welds didn't make this easy and i didn't have a big enough hammer.... (the earlier shock rods have a shorter area in the top thread so you can't put the newer top parts on them)
Drilled some new holes for the vb-vp strut top plate.

View attachment 168494
Now after doing this it looks like cutting the top off a vt/vx/vy tower would've been a better idea than trying to mess with vr/vs top plates

there seems to be an issue with the VB-VP lower control arms, they hit the k-frame when the suspension is fully extended... can't line the bolt holes up (if i jacked it up it'd go but then it'd hit when the suspension if fully extended over bumps, but there's not point going backwards like this, it's only to get the bomb rolling again)

View attachment 168495

Sway bar link pin lines up so there's a bonus and it seems i need a new rack boot....

If i move the lca mount point inwards on the k-frame there should be enough clearance without it doing the same on the vb-vs k-frame (which was a concern)

 

[Jxfwsf]

Well this still needs more work, the raised lip on the VN strut tower has cut thru the rubber on the top locating washer (wasn't making any noise or hindering steering).
It's not in the scrap pile yet, more time to spend in the shed with this crap weather will sort it out.

 

[Immortality]

If i move the lca mount point inwards on the k-frame there should be enough clearance without it doing the same on the vb-vs k-frame (which was a concern)

I don't know if it's been mentioned but if you alter the lower control arm mounting points you also need to modify the steering rack length to suit.

The distance between the lower control arm mounting points and the width of the steering rack needs to be the same, if they are different then you will introduce more bump steer into the suspension.

I discussed this with a few steering specialists and a certifying engineer years ago when considering doing this mod.

I did see a VS some time ago that had VE coil overs fitted in the front. He had to make bushes to fit the strut into the strut top If I remember correctly.