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Hard starting?

Discussion in 'VY Holden Commodore (2002 - 2004)' started by VYMAD, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    Hey guys, having some trouble with the VY V6. Lately when I crank it over to start, it will either fire and then die, or wind over for a few seconds and then stop cranking all together. Turn key off and try again a few times and will finally start. Battery is not that old and doesn't sound lazy. It has new plugs, leads, fuel filter, air filter, I always run it on premium and occasionally run some injector cleaner through it. Once it has started it runs as per normal, no power loss, no miss etc Thoughts?
    Oh and sometimes it's not doing the above at all, as in it just starts normally first go.
     
  2. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    Intermittent faults are usually the hardest to diagnose, expecially without seeing the car. I would have to go with an electrical fault. Perhaps the coil pack or sensor is faulty. Do you have any error codes showing?
     
  3. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    There's no warning lights on the dash and I don't have access to a tech 2.
     
  4. db_notso

    db_notso diagnostic technician...

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    vt v6, mods(susp brakesetc...)
    FIRST check battery terminals are tight and acid isnt leaking from the battery

    you need a multimeter
    on "volts setting"

    put meter onto battery
    with everything off it should read around 12 volts
    when "cranking/starting" it should NOT be less than 10 volts
    with car running and everything off it should be around 14 volts
    then turn everything on you can lights etc it should still read about 14 volts

    IF is less than 13.00 volts when engine running all off then have altenator internals checked

    If is less than 13.00 volts when engine running and all lights etc on check altenator brushes (or altenator diodes gone)

    IF reads less than 10 volts while cranking try jump starting the car and see if still drops below 10 volts (with two batterys on it)
    if it does drop below ten volts check wiring on the starter motor is tight
    if wiring tight likely need to replace starter

    if everything above passes the tests....
    swap starter relay with another relay in the engine fuse box and try to crank again

    if all is ok suspect starter solenoid is worn out take it to auto electricians to have solenoid replaced

    when solenoid fails
    will crank at normal speed but will miss like 1, 2 , gap, 4, etc
    basically what happens is the "switch" inside the starter solenoid doesnt contact properly as it is dirty/worn on a certain spot
    as the switch operates it moves like a rotation of its contacts
    so the switch flicks once but cant stay engaged long enough to spin up the starter motor

    try that stuff before going into possible faults with ignition signal good luck!~
     
  5. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    Thank you. I shall get hold of a multimeter and give it a go. Cheers.
     
  6. TMM

    TMM OEM+

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    If it stops cranking while you are still turning the key its either the key/immobilizer or the starter motor. If it were anything else it would just keep cranking forever until the battery goes flat.
    If the key is dead or there is bad electrical contact with the barrel, the immobilizer will cut the starter motor, fuel and spark after a few cranks.
     
  7. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    Tried both keys, same thing. Seems to fire for a second and then stop, turn key off/on a couple of times and if I'm lucky it'll start. I wiped the ring on the ignition barrell with my finger before, maybe armour all on it? I dunno, waiting to get hold of a multimeter and check out as above post says. Tearing my hair out.
    Have been researching on this forum and have come up with possible:
    ;CAS
    ;Coil packs
    ;Bad earth
    ;Key signal, as you say
    ;DFI.
    Still open to any more suggestions. Have checked all vaccuum hoses etc, starter motor wiring, swapped engine start relay.
     
  8. PRAVX II S

    PRAVX II S Member

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    sounds to me like the starter solenoid is burned out. But first.
    Check for power at the starter solenoid the thin wire that triggers the starter. What you need to do is get someone to crank the car and test this wire for power. This power should not go away until the key is back to the reds position.
    If the power disappears or is not there while trying to start it the problem lies further back like starter relay, inhibitor switch if auto,even the factory security,
    But if there is a constant power there then inspect the the thick power wire from the battery to the starter make sure there is a good connection at both points.
    You should also check voltage drop from the battery positive to the starter positive should be no more the 0.5 on the multi-meter.
    If this is ok then i would change the starter motor.
     
  9. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    Ok, thanks, will do. I have just been over at a mates place doing the multimeter tests from a few posts above and that all passed. I have found, however that it seems if I put the key in the ignition and press unlock again, the engine starts first go! I have stopped and started a few times today at shops, etc, and each time this method seems to be starting it. So, maybe immobiliser related? I will do these checks that you have suggested and thanks for the quick reply.
     
  10. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    Well, I've booked in to Holden on Tuesday the 4th to pull any codes that have been logged. Still starts every time if I press unlock again while key is in the ignition. So I am thinking the problem could be in the factory security.
    Anyone know if this will have logged a code? Not real happy about going to Holden, but after a bit of ringing around, they are the only ones I've found with a tech 2. $50 and I should then know if any codes come up. 7 years and never had it checked so probably worthwile, I'm hoping.
     
  11. db_notso

    db_notso diagnostic technician...

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    vt v6, mods(susp brakesetc...)
    if unlocking the car with key in ignition (using remote buttons)
    this resynchronizes they key to the car for the immobiliser
    so its either
    -key falt battery (replace key)
    -bcm losing memory (replace key and immobiliser OUCH)
    -or failed key reader around barrel (slip ring)

    good luck to you!~
     
  12. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    Both keys have started doing this at the same time.
    Where is the immobiliser, is it in the BCM, hence the "ouch"?
    How could I check the key reader around the barrel, only by replacing it for a new one and see if that fixes it?
     
  13. db_notso

    db_notso diagnostic technician...

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    vt v6, mods(susp brakesetc...)
    if key reader is failed there will be a code stored like "slip ring failure"
    its cheap and easy to replace
    if bcm is stuffing up then door locks wont work (normally)
    the immobiliser is MOSTLY inside the bcm but had a signal converter that is the "slip ring"
    the slip ring is the part around the ignition barrel where you put your key into
    basically if it fails there will be PRESENT codes stored in the BCM (body control module)
    if the code is slip ring failure then i would fit a slip ring OR the slip ring connector is loose OR the wiring around the steering coloumn is cut/pinched
    basically i wouldnt tell you what to do without getting codes pulled out of the car... is a very complicated system when it comes to checking it manually (with multimeter AND oscilloscope)

    lets say though ...
    both keys have fault then i would think its the key reader itself (around ign barrel)
    worst case scenarion its the bcm that is at fault requiring two keys and a bcm ($$$$ = ouch)
     
  14. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    Ok DB, well on tuesday I'll let you know what codes Holden have pulled. In the mean time I might pull the steering column apart and have a look for pinched/loose wires, etc. I noticed the key reader is slightly loose, can pe pressed in a little, but as far as I can remember it always was, doesn't look broken. At least Holden should be able to tell me if the key reader has been logged as a fault code, though. Cheers.
     
  15. db_notso

    db_notso diagnostic technician...

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    right if it looks loose do you mean the pieces of metal sticking out or just the rubber cover around it?
     
  16. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    The actual metal ring pushes in slightly with my finger, but just pops back out as if it's on a spring? I'm sure it has always done this though. It doesn't seem to be broken.
     
  17. db_notso

    db_notso diagnostic technician...

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    the METAL part is on a spring and should move the rubber goes onto a bracket that should not move...

    just waiting for that code list now i guess....
     
  18. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    SUCCESS!!!! Had codes pulled today at Holden. Code 17- Not ok to start recieved from pcm x2.
    Code 02- Slip ring failure.
    Cleared codes and rechecked and found 02 slip ring failure code still evident.

    I have priced a new slip ring reader and will be picking it up tomorrow, $21. So will pick it up and install it and check wiring while I'm at it. Cheers.
     
  19. VYMAD

    VYMAD SILVERFOX

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    Well I installed the new slip ring reader tonight and it is still doing the same thing, DOH! I have noticed that after the car's been unlocked for a while, the immobiliser light on the dash starts flashing again, but goes out when I press the unlock button? Anyway the guy at Holden said it may be the keys, as I have opened them up and done the repair job on them as per the how-to in the VS KEY REPAIR HOW TO. But I did this ages ago and both keys were working fine until this problem started a week or so ago and both keys are doing the same thing. Guy at Holden was sure the problem was not in the BCM. Any more ideas anyone???
     
  20. Dr HaxZaw

    Dr HaxZaw New Member

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    one of my mates had a problem with the immobiliser after his mum put his car keys through the washing machine lol... anyway he pulled the keys apart and gave em a good clean and it all worked good... not saying yours is the same problem but maybe giving them a good clean inside would help... just thinking its only 20 mins and its free and might save you $$ down the road... hopefully it works for you
     

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