JC Political Thread - For All Things Political Part 2

[Calaber]

Can somebody from the left side of this forum tell us why it is SO important that the Government releases details of every boat interception/landing/turn back/sinking or whatever? So the last government was more open about it - so what? If the government IS being secretive about it - so what?

Do you really think that Australians want to hear about every single boat movement? This government won a sizeable majority using the boat people issue as a major policy. I don't see the average person getting their knickers twisted over the government's actions to date - only the leftists, the ABC and the Greens. (and now, it appears, the UN) Australians just want to know that this issue is being addressed more effectively than the previous mob did. I doubt that Joe Average cares if they turn them back, tow them back, give them a Gregory's to show the right direction to Indonesia or even if the boats sink before they can be reached. And I don't think they want to be bombarded with Government claims about effectiveness of their policies.

So why is it so important?

 

[c2105026]

I would agree - it isn't a big deal. But the moral premise for Operation Soveregin borders/Manus Island solution etc. is a separate issue altogether, that has been discussed countless times before on this thread.

 

[vr94ss]

Can somebody from the left side of this forum tell us why it is SO important that the Government releases details of every boat interception/landing/turn back/sinking or whatever? So the last government was more open about it - so what? If the government IS being secretive about it - so what?

Do you really think that Australians want to hear about every single boat movement? This government won a sizeable majority using the boat people issue as a major policy. I don't see the average person getting their knickers twisted over the government's actions to date - only the leftists, the ABC and the Greens. (and now, it appears, the UN) Australians just want to know that this issue is being addressed more effectively than the previous mob did. I doubt that Joe Average cares if they turn them back, tow them back, give them a Gregory's to show the right direction to Indonesia or even if the boats sink before they can be reached. And I don't think they want to be bombarded with Government claims about effectiveness of their policies.

So why is it so important?

Good to know another ex-lib leader is now a lefty according to the right.
Abbott's secretive ways have gone too far, says John Hewson

 

[Calaber]

Good to know another ex-lib leader is now a lefty according to the right.
Abbott's secretive ways have gone too far, says John Hewson

So how about YOUR answer, instead of simply dumping an internet quote? I don't give a stuff about Hewson's views - he's disagreed with governments of both persuasions since being dumped as Opposition Leader.

What are YOUR views? And, if you think the government is being secretive about boats, why is it important that they be more candid? That was my original question - surely it can't be too hard to answer?

 

[vr94ss]

So how about YOUR answer, instead of simply dumping an internet quote? I don't give a stuff about Hewson's views - he's disagreed with governments of both persuasions since being dumped as Opposition Leader.

What are YOUR views? And, if you think the government is being secretive about boats, why is it important that they be more candid? That was my original question - surely it can't be too hard to answer?

No need to get all snippity, as you could plainly see I was addressing your claims that it was only lefties, the abc, etc. I'd bet that other old leftie Fraser wouldn't think much of it either.

I'll give you the answer you seek though, yes I believe they should be more open, hiding low level information like this in a democracy is wrong. As I have said before, if it was that important to national security, Abbott should have said something before the election and advised Labor to stop the flow of information, he didn't and actually was on TV every night spruiking figures. Why didn't he STFU then? You think Achmed the smuggler doesn't know what's going on? He has cell phones on board the boat, he has Indonesia's media and any returned asylum seekers to find out what's happening. I see Abbott's silence nothing more than trying to keep it out of the public eye so it doesn't bite him in the arse. Honesty and transparency in government, remember where you heard that before the elections?

Edit: Seeing as you put the ABC in that list too, you might want to read http://www.theage.com.au/business/s...ds-coalition-20090902-f8gm.html#ixzz2mU5W6PRN

 

[Calaber]

No need to get all snippity, as you could plainly see I was addressing your claims that it was only lefties, the abc, etc. I'd bet that other old leftie Fraser wouldn't think much of it either.

I'll give you the answer you seek though, yes I believe they should be more open, hiding low level information like this in a democracy is wrong. As I have said before, if it was that important to national security, Abbott should have said something before the election and advised Labor to stop the flow of information, he didn't and actually was on TV every night spruiking figures. Why didn't he STFU then? You think Achmed the smuggler doesn't know what's going on? He has cell phones on board the boat, he has Indonesia's media and any returned asylum seekers to find out what's happening. I see Abbott's silence nothing more than trying to keep it out of the public eye so it doesn't bite him in the arse. Honesty and transparency in government, remember where you heard that before the elections?

Edit: Seeing as you put the ABC in that list too, you might want to read Study finds ABC bias leans towards Coalition

I wasn't getting snippety. I asked for opinions, not internet extracts. And Fraser is pretty irrelevant these days - he was an arrogant sod in office and seems to have remained a miserable bastard since he lost in 1983. We obviously have very different views about what is democratically wrong. I became annoyed at the endless stream of boat arrival announcements over the past few years. I'll bet I'm not alone with that view. I don't want to hear of nothing else every night - the world goes on in more important ways without hearing about the next load of arrivals - so the silence is a nice change. Of course, it now brings out the whingers, who are just as vocal about Abbott's silence as he was about Labor's failings.

I fail to see how any reasonable person can say that his silence is to prevent him being bitten on the backside. The results to date would indicate that something is working, whether it's the PNG solution or OSB, or a combination of both. So what's to worry about by not announcing daily developments? Where exactly is the danger to his or his government's credibility by remaining mute?

And regarding the ABC's bias, I have stated previously that the pro-leftist bias on the ABC was blatant in recent months and very clear to see on a number of politically inclined programs I watch regularly. The Age extract dates from 2009, prior to Rudd's knifing and so many more Labor screw-ups that occurred subsequently, so just how relevant is it over four years later? Lots happened since then to alter the ABC's leanings.

 

[Grennan]

The Australian public was so utterly fed up with hearing anything from Canberra. Whilst this may be an attempt at playing down boat arrivals. I think its also the new Govt offering a breather for Australia. Australia was so disinterested in politics it threw their votes at minority parties and donkey votes 3 years ago. Was so utterly fed up with politics it destroyed Labor. They were hearing about boat arrivals on a daily basis when we really dont need a daily update.

I dont care if they are limiting the details. Im happy with not being bombared with the same rubbish out of Canberra every single day.

 

[vr94ss]

I wasn't getting snippety. I asked for opinions, not internet extracts. And Fraser is pretty irrelevant these days - he was an arrogant sod in office and seems to have remained a miserable bastard since he lost in 1983. We obviously have very different views about what is democratically wrong. I became annoyed at the endless stream of boat arrival announcements over the past few years. I'll bet I'm not alone with that view. I don't want to hear of nothing else every night - the world goes on in more important ways without hearing about the next load of arrivals - so the silence is a nice change. Of course, it now brings out the whingers, who are just as vocal about Abbott's silence as he was about Labor's failings.

That's what you may have asked but that wasn't what I chose to respond to, surely that's ok? You, I and many others may get sick of hearing about it, there are others like the media, the opposition, ngos that want information. It doesn't have to be on the tv everynight, it just has to be available to interested parties. For eg, I woudn't want to watch politicians defend their rorting on tv everynight, having that information open to the public is a good thing.

I fail to see how any reasonable person can say that his silence is to prevent him being bitten on the backside. The results to date would indicate that something is working, whether it's the PNG solution or OSB, or a combination of both. So what's to worry about by not announcing daily developments? Where exactly is the danger to his or his government's credibility by remaining mute?

If things like the PNG solution and the current monsoon season hadn't slowed thing it would have been terribly embarrassing, making a decision from the word go not to talk about it gives his detractors less information, not people smugglers.

And regarding the ABC's bias, I have stated previously that the pro-leftist bias on the ABC was blatant in recent months and very clear to see on a number of politically inclined programs I watch regularly. The Age extract dates from 2009, prior to Rudd's knifing and so many more Labor screw-ups that occurred subsequently, so just how relevant is it over four years later? Lots happened since then to alter the ABC's leanings.

Howard's gov thought it was back then, look at the time span the report looked at. Who I wonder wanted the report done? The one that put right wingers like Flint in charge of the ABC? Mr Howard? Like I have said, I think it's pretty even handed, just because you may not like what is reported or the facts go against what you believe, does not make it biased. Both sides have said it's biased against them, to me that's a good indication it's not biased.

I'll give an example.. Let's go with 99% of scientists and those in a position to know agree AGW is happening, 1% don't. The ABC is doing a show on AGW. How much time should we give the 1%ers? 50% of the discussion or 1%? The deniers would think only getting 1% of the time is biased and so would their supporters in the community. Is it? Should we also give the .03% who think god will fix it a place in the discussion? Facts aren't biased, it's how we choose to perceive them.

edit: Would Abbott loading up Australian flagged boats, those proposed lifeboats or whatever they are that will be launched from Australian warships, with ASs and sending them back to Indonesia be considered people smuggling? Just a thought...

 

[Reaper]

That's what you may have asked but that wasn't what I chose to respond to, surely that's ok? You, I and many others may get sick of hearing about it, there are others like the media, the opposition, ngos that want information. It doesn't have to be on the tv everynight, it just has to be available to interested parties. For eg, I woudn't want to watch politicians defend their rorting on tv everynight, having that information open to the public is a good thing.

Why the #### try to answer a question that nobody asked??? :bang:

If things like the PNG solution and the current monsoon season hadn't slowed thing it would have been terribly embarrassing, making a decision from the word go not to talk about it gives his detractors less information, not people smugglers.

That's just as stupid as the ALP/Greens/Lefties all claiming that bonafide off shore processing with no chance of repatriation to Aus wouldn't work. They did it for the best part of a decade. Only as a complete and utter lack of desperation they changed the policy and bang! Care to estimate how many thousand lives were needlessly lost or risked in the 5 and a bit years of their alternative "humane" policy??? As for the monsoon season, I believe the reductions are based on not only the same year but corresponding months in years passed.

This is the real stupidity. The "humane" policy actively encourages people to risk their lives with many ultimately drowning yet with the "inhumane" policy has in the order of 80% less people attempting the journey.

edit: Would Abbott loading up Australian flagged boats, those proposed lifeboats or whatever they are that will be launched from Australian warships, with ASs and sending them back to Indonesia be considered people smuggling? Just a thought...

Hardly.

 

[vr94ss]

Why the #### try to answer a question that nobody asked??? :bang:

Simple, he brought up more than just the question he asked, lumping lefties, the UN and the ABC into some sort of bloc. There's righties in that bloc too. I can't respond to other things he brings up? I should answer his question first? Why should I have to when I was commenting on the bloc he put together not his question? :bang: