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JC Political Thread - For all things political Part 2

c2105026

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Ok then you become inter generationally welfare dependent, get off it and tell us how easy it was.

Don't ask someone to do something that you aren't entirely willing to do yourself.....
 

Grennan

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C3P0 - Why should we as a community foot the bill because parents have decided to live their lives as mooches and fail to teach their kids any sort of work ethic or self pride? They need a good kick in the arse.

I agree there needs to be a welfare system, we cant have people living in the streets like the US. But you should not be able to live off the dole for an extended period of time. It should be survivable but by no means comfortable.

I wouldnt be against some sort of rent assistance type welfare (if nothing already exists apart from commissioned housing). Rent is a HUGE expense in this country - especially in Victoria. Instead of the dole it could be broken up into cash for food etc and automated payments to your landlord that way you at very least have a roof over your heads.
 

c2105026

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C3P0 - Why should we as a community foot the bill because parents have decided to live their lives as mooches and fail to teach their kids any sort of work ethic or self pride? They need a good kick in the arse.

I agree there needs to be a welfare system, we cant have people living in the streets like the US. But you should not be able to live off the dole for an extended period of time. It should be survivable but by no means comfortable.

I wouldnt be against some sort of rent assistance type welfare (if nothing already exists apart from commissioned housing). Rent is a HUGE expense in this country - especially in Victoria. Instead of the dole it could be broken up into cash for food etc and automated payments to your landlord that way you at very least have a roof over your heads.

Because intergenerational welfare dependency is 'life', as unfortunate as it is, and will never be solved. You'll never get 100% engagement in society. No one chooses to be anything. Such people reflect the society they grew up in. It's all a learned trait over 100 years in the making, making it hard to weed out.

If you are on welfare you get some rental assistance. I also think that if on housing commission you get some payment garnished for rent but am open to correction.
 

Reaper

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Ok then you become inter generationally welfare dependent, get off it and tell us how easy it was.

Don't ask someone to do something that you aren't entirely willing to do yourself.....

Wtf??? I'm not asking anybody to live on the dole. I'm not willing to do it myself. Matter of fact I'm specifically asking/telling them not to live on welfare. I'm asking them to get a job - I have one of those, have been un-employed periodically over the years (once for about 3 months) but never accepted welfare although I more than qualified during the long stint.

Because intergenerational welfare dependency is 'life', as unfortunate as it is, and will never be solved. You'll never get 100% engagement in society. No one chooses to be anything. Such people reflect the society they grew up in. It's all a learned trait over 100 years in the making, making it hard to weed out.

Lolwut??? Go to the library - there are thousands (millions??) of biographies of people who started with truly horrendous childhoods and chose to make amazing lives for themselves. Many of them chose their own paths in life and fought against almighty adversity to achieve it. To suggest they did anything other than chose their own path is offensive.
 

c2105026

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Wtf??? I'm not asking anybody to live on the dole. I'm not willing to do it myself. Matter of fact I'm specifically asking/telling them not to live on welfare. I'm asking them to get a job - I have one of those, have been un-employed periodically over the years (once for about 3 months) but never accepted welfare although I more than qualified during the long stint.



Lolwut??? Go to the library - there are thousands (millions??) of biographies of people who started with truly horrendous childhoods and chose to make amazing lives for themselves. Many of them chose their own paths in life and fought against almighty adversity to achieve it. To suggest they did anything other than chose their own path is offensive.

You are asking those on the dole to undergo further restrictions that vary from inconvenient to humiliating. Until you go on the dole, intergenerationally long term, and then have the further restrictions, I don't think you'll ever really understand.

There are rags to riches stories yes but these often were the result of an external person or other agent inspiring or motivating. There may be millions of success stories but there are billions of stories where nothing significant happened. Conversely, offspring of wealthy parents may have picked very bad habits and behaviours from parents and still flush their lives down the toilet.

Above all the 'I/they did it so can you' argument for self improvement is highly flawed because it hugely glosses over the specific traits of one's unique situation.
 

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You are asking those on the dole to undergo further restrictions that vary from inconvenient to humiliating. Until you go on the dole, intergenerationally long term, and then have the further restrictions, I don't think you'll ever really understand.

Many people are using it as a means to fund their entire lives. That is not acceptable and thus should be remedied. I have no problem with people deciding no to work for a living. Fine - free country. Just don't expect the taxpayer (aka all the rest of the country who work for a living) to pay for it.

There are rags to riches stories yes but these often were the result of an external person or other agent inspiring or motivating. There may be millions of success stories but there are billions of stories where nothing significant happened.

Lol - so what??? Your "choice" comment was just entirely wrong. People are indeed influenced by their environment and upbringing however as a race we are not daft (well some of us aren't) and are capable of independent thought
and are capable of making choices shaping our own destiny. It doesn't have to be world beating - it can be as simple as somebody deciding to be a truck driver because they like driving trucks. I'm sure near all of the truck driving population had a choice in the matter, not thrust into the job by way of I don't know what.
 

c2105026

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Many people are using it as a means to fund their entire lives. That is not acceptable and thus should be remedied.

Lol - so what??? Your "choice" comment was just entirely wrong. People are indeed influenced by their environment and upbringing however as a race we are not daft (well some of us aren't) and are capable of independent thought
and are capable of making choices shaping our own destiny. It doesn't have to be world beating - it can be as simple as somebody deciding to be a truck driver because they like driving trucks. I'm sure near all of the truck driving population had a choice in the matter, not thrust into the job by way of I don't know what.

Indeed, very long term unemployment is sad in that there is so much human potential going to waste. However if a problem took several decades to develop, do you seriously think it can be solved within an electoral cycle (unless an idea had bipartisan support, in which point it could be longer term solution)

Using trucks as example- if a parent gives a child toy trucks to play with, and say the parent talks about trucks in a positive manner, they are more likely to be a truck driver. What you bring a child or teen up as is profoundly powerful. As example (not vocational but relevant nonetheless) if a child is brought up as religious there is only 1/12 chance they will leave that religion as an adult. Choice can exist but upbringing is powerful.
 

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However a big issue with welfare dependency is that it is often inter generational. A child growing up in a household where both the grandparents and the parents always got the dole - not looking good for them. Some do get out of the cycle via an epiphany, a lucky encounter with a chance mentor etc but most in this situation don't.

Simple ideas like coupons, telling people what you can and can't spend money on will only aggravate and frustrate some people affected. For some people the concept of 'work' is an utterly foreign concept. This particular issue is unsolvable within the 3 year electoral cycle.

I still maintain that if people had to live on the dole, their perspective of the issue would change.

Largely agree with everything you said. Thus why I feel an incentive to stay in a job for 12 months is a good start. It will break the cycle.
 

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Two things come to mind in response to the above.

While I agree that this may inconvenience those who do not abuse the system, it would only be a "short term" inconvenience until they re-entered the workforce and didn't need welfare.

"You don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You take it and stfu."

I know the ending to that saying isn't strictly as the original, but it expresses the sentiment nicely.

And those who are on welfare abusing the system are acting like children do they can be treated accordingly.

Your comment about the a scheme like a card that only works at certain businesses being "too bad for small business" is baseless. Unless you classify Jim Beam, Philip Morris USA INC and Panasonic "small business". Then yes, I am sure it will be too bad for them, but they will survive.

Finally, I just want to point out a bit of hypocrisy from you.

In your post, you have made it clear that you don't like the idea of schemes where everyone is punished because of a few who spoil it for the rest of us.

In you example, I understand you were referring to some people on welfare abusing the system and the result being measures who take away everyone's rights.

So how come you are so comfortable with money being taken from the majority of people and given to a minority who, in most cases, chose not to work?

Why does this minority of people have more right to my hard earned cash than I do?

That seems to be a but of punishing the majority because of the minority?

I know there are shades of grey in all this, but you seem to be very hard line in your philosophy, so long as the benefactor is anyone but those who are well off, or work for what they have, or generally those who keep this whole happy little system afloat.

If tomorrow, for whatever reason everyone who pays tax was allowed to instead take their money that would have gone towards welfare payments and instead buy a slab of beer, there would be an outcry from people such as yourself. So that will never happen and I won't get that slab of beer.

But on the other hand, if there was a system introduced were all those who receive that money were not allowed to buy a slab of beer, there would be an outcry from people such as yourself and c2105026 would say it's treating adults like children and infringes on people's liberties.

That hardly seems right fair to me.

I take your point Jester, but we all have things we would rather our taxes not spent on, the best way to look at that is to think your taxes go to the things you want and mine go to things I want, so I see mine as going to health, education, etc and not to mining and business handouts and handouts to neg gearing etc. If people cannot live, they will steal to live, rob or deal drugs to live, then we have to fork out $100,000 a year to lock 'em up. I consider it insurance. Giving someone $10 grand to feed themselves is more cost effective than locking them up after they've robbed your house.

There's not much left out of a dole check after you pay rent, our rent is more that you even get on the dole, some might waste it but I'm pretty sure most don't or we'd have far bigger social problems. It is subsistence living and I can't imagine anyone in their right mind making the choice to remain on it. Sure there are some not in their right mind but the rest? How can people maintain dignity and self reliance if they're treated as children? There are always going to be unemployed and not everyone earns enough to save for that period when they find themselves out of work. There are almost 6% of our population out of work and that's the ones that are counted, not the ones that work more than an hour a week, which are not counted in that 6%.
 

Calaber

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You are asking those on the dole to undergo further restrictions that vary from inconvenient to humiliating. Until you go on the dole, intergenerationally long term, and then have the further restrictions, I don't think you'll ever really understand.

There are rags to riches stories yes but these often were the result of an external person or other agent inspiring or motivating. There may be millions of success stories but there are billions of stories where nothing significant happened. Conversely, offspring of wealthy parents may have picked very bad habits and behaviours from parents and still flush their lives down the toilet.

Above all the 'I/they did it so can you' argument for self improvement is highly flawed because it hugely glosses over the specific traits of one's unique situation.


I was going to sit this debate out but your statement has me perplexed. So here goes.

Why is that those with leftist leanings believe that only they can identify with the unemployed and understand their situations whilst being equally convinced that those of us on the right can never do so as we are impervious their "plight"? Can you answer that?

Got me buggered......
 
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