VW Vs EPA drama ?

[Noeleter]

Fraud-a deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

 

[Rajesh Koothrappali]

Fraud-a deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

No deception.

1. passed test.
2. sold with a disclaimer along the lines of "actual results will vary depending on driving style and road conditions".

 

[Noeleter]

No deception.

1. passed test.
2. sold with a disclaimer along the lines of "actual results will vary depending on driving style and road conditions".

Deliberate deception to "pass" test. We will wait and see who the courts agree with.

 

[Rajesh Koothrappali]

When they've met the requirements of the government test AND sold the car with a disclaimer about "real world use" being different, there is no deception anywhere.

 

[Reaper]

You have a very warped sense of what fraud is. VW have NOT committed fraud. I think you need to get a better understanding of what they did.

They were given a test to pass, they passed it. End of story. Why isn't anyone saying "the bloody test is the problem - it should be carried out in real world driving conditions rather than in wind tunnel/lab/testing facility". Some people say VW moved the goal posts. Some people say VW misled everyone. Some people say VW lied by saying they passed the test. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The goal posts weren't moved. VW played to the goal posts of the field they were on at the time. It's not misleading to make claims that are true. And it's not lying to say you pass a test (and then include a disclaimer that says "real world figures may vary" like everyone does).

I'm not seeing how you conclude they pass the test. Emissions regulations say that certain emissions should not exceed given values for specified situations. That would mean specific situations regardless if the car was being driven or stationary during a test on a dyno. No argument that they pass during the dyno test however even that is fraudulent as it is at the expense of power and torque which is not disclosed to the public. Nor do they disclose that the car does not, nor will ever pass (or even come close to!) passing emissions testing for the given parameters in normal operation.

I still congratulate VW for their engineering creativity. Passing a shitty test doesn't make you guilty of anything. Creating a shitty test and then crying foul because someone was able to pass it creatively just means you need a better test.

By virtue of VW's response to the situation since it broke suggests that you are wrong on this one.

 

[Noeleter]

This is a very clear case of fraud and the legal profession will have no problem in proving it. What is potentially a bigger problem is that most consumer goods are now controlled by " corporate software" for which there are few laws or tests. Companies can use this software to basically do what they want it to in most cases without scrutiny.

 

[Reaper]

This is a very clear case of fraud and the legal profession will have no problem in proving it. What is potentially a bigger problem is that most consumer goods are now controlled by " corporate software" for which there are few laws or tests. Companies can use this software to basically do what they want it to in most cases without scrutiny.

The laws quite often are there and are very clear. I think the testing side of the equation is where things can and do fall down.

 

[Noeleter]

We tend to do analogue testing and not very well as this case proves. If Testimg of vehicles and other products involved a programmer looking at the software, such issues would be easily picked up. However, software is generally seen as intellectual property and therefore "secret"

 

[Rajesh Koothrappali]

VWs response, unfortunately, has to be that of the angry masses caused by the beat up. Behind closed doors I guarantee their legal team is putting together a very solid case. As has been said, the case will be interesting. Judges tend to try and ignore the sheeple.

The laws quite often are there and are very clear. I think the testing side of the equation is where things can and do fall down.

Case in point. The problem with the VW case is the testing! It's not good enough that manufacturers can pass a test in test conditions. They must (the testers that is) conduct the tests in circumstances that represent the real world in order for their tests to be as robust as they need to be.

 

[Skydrol]

You have a very warped sense of what fraud is. VW have NOT committed fraud. I think you need to get a better understanding of what they did.

They were given a test to pass, they passed it. End of story. Why isn't anyone saying "the bloody test is the problem - it should be carried out in real world driving conditions rather than in wind tunnel/lab/testing facility". Some people say VW moved the goal posts. Some people say VW misled everyone. Some people say VW lied by saying they passed the test. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The goal posts weren't moved. VW played to the goal posts of the field they were on at the time. It's not misleading to make claims that are true. And it's not lying to say you pass a test (and then include a disclaimer that says "real world figures may vary" like everyone does).

I still congratulate VW for their engineering creativity. Passing a shitty test doesn't make you guilty of anything. Creating a shitty test and then crying foul because someone was able to pass it creatively just means you need a better test.

The world really needs to move on from this whole beat up nonsense.

Raj, the purpose of the witch hunt is not to save the whales or the snails, is to scam a corporation for money. We call that Legalized Extortion. If anybody look carefully, they keep talking about fines.

The whole mess is not with the world either, just the already, hardly to achieve California test, not even a nationwide test. They are the ones making the noise and at the same time, is very damaging.

Need to find the news audio clip. This condition is not new, was already known for about a bit more than a year.