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Yet another'check powertrain' - Misfiring thread for VZ commodore -

Discussion in 'VZ Holden Commodore (2004 - 2006)' started by Vzniko, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. Vzniko

    Vzniko Guest

    Firstly,

    allow me to apologise to the moderators as there are at least 3 threads that talk about the same problem I am experiencing.
    The reason I started the new thread is to share with others what I have done so far about the problem and where I am today.

    I had the misfiring/check power train errors since I bought the damn thing back in 2008 with 63000K on the clock. (A small note here, I will never buy anything with a Holden badge on it as long as I live).

    It is now 2011 and after hundreds of dollars short I am back to where I started, the fault has come up again today and I feel like
    driving the car into a tree and be done with it. Seriously I am so mad at Holden right now (But I guess this is not the focus of the topic here).

    To make long story short, I have taken it to many workshops, including a holden dealer and the last time even a performance tuning workshop
    that specialises on Commodores and Falcons.

    I have so far attempted:

    2008 - Holden dealer Code P0460 - Carried out TL1164-0608 and reprogrammed ECU - send me on my way - No charge under warranty
    2009 - Holden dealer Code 33 - Cleared - $55
    2010 - Fuel pump change (Not sure if that was related to this problem $155)
    2011 - Fault codes P0300 (Mylticylinder misfire) and P0303 (Cylinder misfire 3) - cleared fault - $55 - Midas
    2011 - The very next day!! Unkown error - replaced spark plugs and inlet manifold gasket - $300
    2011 - Performance tuning workshop - Replaced coil pack - $175

    These date do not include parts I have replaced myself including leads and another set of spark-plugs.

    Now here I am, error came up again the other day. Is there a Holden representative that can come into this forum and shed some light?
    I do not believe this is rocket science, any good mechanic with experience and know-how should be able to fix this right??

    One note, out of all the places I went for the problem to be fixed, the MOST hopeless ones were the Holden Dealer, who did not even
    bother to replace anything (I guess they saved me money which can be a good thing), cleared the fault in a hurry and send me home!

    Clearing the fault will not fix the problem, why would I have to pay $55 each time to do that?

    Does anyone have a definite solution here or do I drive the car off a cliff and be done with it?

    REGARDS
     
  2. CRUSTIN

    CRUSTIN P-plater

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    You never said if it actually missfires or not, is it only codes or physical symptoms?
     
  3. impulsive

    impulsive Alloytec Racing

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    These are very expensive bills!!
    spark plugs for 6 cost me $45 and the inlet gasket is about $20, not even an houris work, $150 max... $65 if you DIY
    Replaced a coil pack for $165??? Rip off..

    Possible solution, injectors...
     
  4. Vzniko

    Vzniko Guest

    I agree, I shouldn't have let them changed the spark plugs should have done it myself...

    With all the physicals symptoms are all there, you name it, revs not idling properly, Car no accelerating as its suppose to, and also now there is a new one,
    the car will shut down and that small symbol on the bottom right hand corner will come on (Check emission system) Which has never happened before.

    Also I have replaced injector 2 i remember, it was done under warranty, so yeah had tried that as well, Any ideas?
    I am thinking of replacing the leads never done that before since I bought the car.

    Cheers
     
  5. impulsive

    impulsive Alloytec Racing

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    is there any smoke coming from your exhaust?
    the hose that goes into your intake pipe, does that have smoke coming out of it?
     
  6. Vzniko

    Vzniko Guest

    Coil packs

    Hey guys,

    Took it to another guy today. Said that the coil packs are usually what's causing it as it is a common fault with the vz.
    The problem is that the other mechanic replaced only one coil pack, which I was told its stupid. Once you do them, you do them all.
    I had misfiring on cylinder 1,2 and 6.

    So anyone know on how to change them? Any guides at all? Because I was told they are quite expensive for a whole set (Around $150 each) not including labour.

    Cheers
     
  7. Sabbath'

    Sabbath' Road Boss

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    Air intake duct off
    6 13mm bolts to undo inlet manifold
    Take TB connectors off and all hoses on the manifold.
    Split the manifold upper section by lifting it upwards. You'll likely have the revised metal gasket as you've had the manifold off before.
    You dont need to totally remove the manifold, it can just be lifted and blocked up with a hammer handle or piece of wood.
    Disconnect the connectors
    Undo 10mm bolt
    Lift out coilpack.


    Refit is just reverse of above.

    I dont completely agree with the "change one, change all" principal
     
  8. Vzniko

    Vzniko Guest

    Hello,
    Thank you for the isntructions. Got my self 6 coil packs for $50 each from my local repco.
    Job was all done.

    Well the principle of change one, change all is probably due to the multicylinder misfire. I had misfiring in cylinder 1,3 and 6.

    I just changed them, took it for a drive and everything looks ok so far.

    I will keep you posted.

    Thanks everyone for your help
     
  9. Holden1990

    Holden1990 New Member

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    Hi Vzniko, in this past week I have had the exact same probs with my 2005 VZ SV6, 86,000ks. It started with one of my coil packs melting in half!!! The diagnosis was injectors, and then electrics, replaced gasket, and now powertrain fault. We also have to change my timing chains because it sounds like someone in my engine has a metal ladder banging on the sides, stops after 2 seconds. My car is chewing fuel and just running sh!t. My partner will bring home 6 new coil packs tomorrow and we will try this now.... thanks alot for your experience, hope all worked out for you?????
     
  10. Vzniko

    Vzniko Guest

    Not exactly - Make sure you get new spark plugs as well - apparently damaged coil packs will damage the spark plugs with them.
    I only change the coil packs - and I after 3 days of no problems, the shaking/rough idling has come back - I will take out spark plugs and clean them -It better be the spark plugs - ITS DRIVING ME NUTS.

    ************************************************** **************************************

    I tested (with a multimeter) my old and new coil packs and I came up with some interesting values

    Anyone with a repair manual that can have the look on the values (in Ohms) for the VZ coils.??

    Here is how i tested, however all of them are giving me different readings.
    I just replaced all 6 of them. It has 4 metal pins I tested the 2 middle ones first and then the left (1st) and 3rd one. (The other combinations gave me no reading).

    OLD COILS - in MEGA ohms

    pin tested XxXx (1st and 3rd) ---- Two middle pins xXXx

    1 - 5.22 -------------------------- 11.94
    2 - 5.00 -------------------------- 11.78
    3 - 0.46 ---------------------------No reading (This one is finished)
    4 - 5.02 ---------------------------11.87
    5 - 5.05 ---------------------------11.92

    BRAND NEW COILS
    pin tested XxXx (1st and 3rd) ---- Two middle pins xXXx

    1 - 10.00------------------------- 16.05
    2 - 08.57 ------------------------17.33
    3 - 11.96 ------------------------13.05
    4 - 08.71 ------------------------16.55
    5 - 08.00 ------------------------15.37
    6 - 08.21 ------------------------16.14

    As you can see the values are ALL over the place, however I deducted that the two middle pins need to be 13+
    and the 1st-3rd pin more than 10+

    Anyone that can give me some values to work with??
     
  11. Vzniko

    Vzniko Guest

    Not exactly - Make sure you get new spark plugs as well - apparently damaged coil packs will damage the spark plugs with them.
    I only changed the coil packs - and after 2-3 days of no problems, the shaking/rough idling has come back - I will take out spark plugs and clean them -It better be the spark plugs - ITS DRIVING ME NUTS.

    ************************************************** **************************************

    I tested (with a multimeter) my old and new coil packs and I came up with some interesting values

    Anyone with a repair manual that can have the look on the values (in Ohms) for the VZ coils.??

    Here is how i tested, however all of them are giving me different readings.
    I just replaced all 6 of them. It has 4 metal pins I tested the 2 middle ones first and then the left (1st) and 3rd one. (The other combinations gave me no reading).

    OLD COILS - in MEGA ohms

    pin tested XxXx (1st and 3rd) Two middle pins xXXx

    1 - 5.22 11.94
    2 - 5.00 11.78
    3 - 0.46 No reading (This one is finished)
    4 - 5.02 11.87
    5 - 5.05 11.92

    BRAND NEW COILS
    pin tested XxXx (1st and 3rd) Two middle pins xXXx

    1 - 10.00 16.05
    2 - 08.57 17.33
    3 - 11.96 13.05
    4 - 08.71 16.55
    5 - 08.00 15.37
    6 - 08.21 16.14

    As you can see the values are ALL over the place, however I deducted that the two middle pins need to be 13+
    and the 1st-3rd pin more than 10+

    Anyone that can give me some values to work with??
     
  12. mia77

    mia77 New Member

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    same prob

    Hi
    I am a chick who dosnt want to be ripped off by a mechanic, I have a 2006 VZ and twice now with air con on and accelerating away from an intersection, I have lost power and the car started shuddering and "check power train" alarm has flashed at me, after turning car off and restarting it seemed fine? My car has nearly done 200,000 kms, just had a service. So from the above threads, Do you think my coils are going? if yes do I need to get it fixed ASAP and where do I take it to get fixed? Im in North East of Adelaide, can anyone help me with some advice? Also seems to be chewing petrol and aircon is using alot of power.....
     
  13. mia77

    mia77 New Member

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    Since posting the above, my VZ is now screwed, alarm constantly going off "check powertrain" and is chugging and shuddering and hasnt much power, got it home and not moving it now, merry xmas to me!!! Please give me som advice so Im not ripped off again at the mechanics..
     
  14. elshonno

    elshonno New Member

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    Mate I rember you posting in my thread, you never mentioned you had three cyl misfiring.

    The first thing to check is for a vacuum leak specially if it is multi/random misfires, there are many videos on you tube on how to do this but it can be dangerous because you are spraying flammable liquid on a running engine, so you should take it to a mechanic
    for this, theyll find it too as they have done this before.

    Also check the wiring back to the ecm, I went through all the pain you did but without $$$ I did it all myself. I run out of options and took it to the mechanic who checked the wiring and traced the fault back to the ecm. $900 part plus labour 2hrs.



    by the way I rang holden and asked the mechanic if he has seen this alot an he mentioned they go all the time on the vz's 2005 models not sure about the later vz's.

    After the new one was installed there was still a rough idle so I cleaned the air intake pipe and maf sensor and now its silent at idle.

    Good Luck
     
  15. Vzniko

    Vzniko Guest

    elshonno,
    Thanks a lot man - Could not find my thread on the forums since it has been so long -

    To this day Since I had posted this thread, I had not fixed the problem. (had the car unregistered sitting in the garage for like 3 months coz it got so bad it was un-driveable).

    have replaced all coil packs and brand new spark plugs still no solution.

    I did a compression check today - all pressures normal - so that eliminates faulty internals valves, valve seals, valve springs etc

    I am starting to think it is an electronic issue too (Oh missed those days where cars had no electronics).

    MIA - Sorry for such a late reply I couldnt find my thread I thought It got deleted.
    I am not sure on what you can do yourself, but buying a new set of spark plugs would be good - when was the last time you changed them?
     
  16. cbar

    cbar New Member

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    HI

    I bought my VZ commodore Saturday from a private sale, was driving it to work on Monday and the power train warning came on, I took it to the mechanics they changed the oxy sensor and now the car is completely miss firing on 3 cylinders is it possible to get a dud after market oxy sensor? and should i just put the old one back in?
     
  17. marco

    marco New Member

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    I had a similar sounding problem a few months ago in my VZ wagon: misfiring badly, check powertain message, low power and high fuel consumption (average city up to 19 litres per 100km!). One mechanic undid the coil connectors one by one until he identified one cylinder (no. 5) that wasn't firing at all (no change to the miss when the coil connector was removed). He told me to change that coil pack which I did the next weekend. Once the new coil pack was in, there was no difference to the miss.
    I then went to another (trusted) mechanic that had worked on some of my previous vehicles and they diagnosed that the ECU module was faulty and shutting down No. 5 cylinder. Once that was changed the car ran fine and has for the last 4 months. Fuel economy while not brilliant is better than before (average city 14 litres per 100km).

    Of course the ECU module was expensive and I probably got ripped off, but at least the horrible miss was gone!
     
  18. ardyrr

    ardyrr New Member

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    i just bought a VZ for $1500 as it had the low fuel,check power train warning miss on verious cylinders,bad fuel economy etc after changing various parts and removing the head the Holden dealer told the owner the rings were gone and needed a new motor, after buying the car and replacing the head ,i sent the ECU BCM PIM and the key fob to petroject in Perth and they tested the ECU and found that was the thing causing all the problems
     
  19. Stevee

    Stevee New Member

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    This just happened to my VZ exec, only bought it last thursday. Have full mechanical protection plan on it though, so the dealer will be paying for all fixes.

    Thanks for this thread, much appreciated.
     
  20. floody

    floody New Member

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    My Experience:

    Stage One: Bought the car, on the way home I gave it a bit of stick up a hill and the powertrain warning light came on and the engine started misfiring. Pulled over, turned it off and an again, fault cleared, drove home.
    I bought a ELM327 wireless adapter for my iPad ($30 generic brand off ebay) and downloaded DashCommand....this allowed me to read and clear the car's codes and confirmed my suspicions that it was a misfire (Codes: P0300 to P0306). Once the code had been cleared once with the iPad the car never misfired under load again.

    Got the car serviced including a coolant leak repair.

    Stage Two: after getting the car back from its service I could feel it 'buck' from time to time while idling. I took it back to the mechanics and they reset the computer to the allow the car to re-learn its fuel-air mixtures....this made it happy for about 30km but then it went back to its old ways.

    Stage Three: About 150km after the service the car went into full time misfire, felt like I was driving a truck. Fault codes indicated misfire.

    The Fix: While the car was running I removed each of the wiring harnesses from the coil packs and took note of the engine's behavior. One of the six coil packs produced no change in engine behavior when it was disconnected. I then replaced the spark plug in this cylinder and swapped the coil pack with the opposing cyclinder's and ran the same disconnection test again. Surprise Surprise the fault followed the coil pack. I then replaced the coil pack with an aftermarket part from AutoPro for $75 and the fault went away. I've only done 5km driving since but the car appears to run perfectly. I suspect the coolant leak previously mentioned had breached the faulty coil pack and corroded it to the point of failure.

    Manifold Removal: I was lucky in that my faulty coil pack was on the rear cylinder, these coil packs are accessible. If your fault is one of the four forward cylinders you will have to raise the upper intake manifold (plenum). If this is the first time your car has had its upper intake manifold removed you will need to buy new gaskets as the factory ones are plastic and will tear. If you've already got a steal gasket set installed you need only to raise the plenum by undoing the 6 bolts on top and putting some wooden chocks under it....unplugging any hoses is unnecessary.

    Putting it back together:
    Spark Plugs: 16-20Nm
    Coil Pack anchor: 7-11Nm
    Upper Intake Manifold Bolts: 23Nm
     

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