Tests on Pod/Panel - Dyno differences in CAI/Intakes

[HamaTime™]

Alright, well this should make for interesting discussion.

At my recent dyno session where I was power testing my current combo and then subsequent power runs with different intakes/CAI's on, I came across some interesting results which I think would make for a good discussion.

I had a number of different dyno runs, I will describe each setup, and the power yielded from that setup, unfortunately I didn't get all the dyno readouts, would have been good to see the torque/power band differences and all that, but never mind.

Temperature of the day: 26 degrees

Dyno Run #1: - Current Setup (running 98 Premium)
- Stock Airbox
- K&N Panel Filter
- L67 Super 6 OTR
- Stock Intake tube
- IMPCO Gas mixer cone on intake before Throttle Body

Power = 94rwkw

Dyno Run #2: - Current Setup (running LPG)
- Stock Airbox
- K&N Panel Filter
- L67 Super 6 OTR
- Stock Intake tube
- IMPCO Gas mixer cone on intake before Throttle Body

Power = 72rwkw

Dyno Run #3: - Power Setup 1 (running 98 Premium)
- Stock Airbox
- K&N Panel Filter
- L67 Super 6 OTR
- 3" Heat resistant plastic Intake tube
- Gas mixer cone REMOVED from intake tube, straight pipe into throttle body (no restriction)

Power = 123rwkw

Dyno Run #3: - Power Setup 1a (running LPG)
- Stock Airbox
- K&N Panel Filter
- L67 Super 6 OTR
- 3" Heat resistant plastic Intake tube
- IMPCO Gas mixer cone on intake before Throttle Body

Power = 73rwkw

Dyno Run #3: - Power Setup 2 (running 98 Premium)
- MACE (style) enclosed pod airbox
- 3" K&N Pod Filter
- 3" Heat resistant plastic Intake tube
- Gas mixer cone REMOVED from intake tube, straight pipe into throttle body (no restriction)

Power = 122rwkw

Dyno Run #3: - Power Setup 2a (running LPG)
- MACE (style) enclosed pod airbox
- 3" K&N Pod Filter
- 3" Heat resistant plastic Intake tube
- IMPCO Gas mixer cone on intake before Throttle Body

Power = 72rwkw

So if we see the trend from the above dyno runs....what is that saying?

1. That the LPG Mixer cone saps a huge 29-30rwkw off the power figure
2. The enclosed Pod really didn't help?
3. The OTR is not the best setup, however did prove to be more effective at speed (had the air machine pushing air into the intake)

All these runs were done twice, both with the bonnet up and the bonnet down to simulate actual road driving (fluid dynamics of how the air gets pushed into the intakes...the difference was barely anything so not worth mentioning.

Anyway, surprise surprise to those who swear by an enclosed POD setup, and rubbish the OTR Super 6 CAI. In saying this, I felt absolutely nothing change with the installation of the CAI, (both the L67 and the Enclosed POD) and obviously this is due to the fact that it is really hard to notice a mod that doesn't add at least 5kw or isn't paired with supporting mods, i.e. changing how the air is fed to the intake helps, but difference is only really felt when the whole system is upgraded, rather than just the intake mouth.
This being said though, the dyno result proved it to yield more power, most likely due to fluid air flow through the intake into the airbox/MAF.

Anyway, this is now up for discussion. Interested to see what you guys have to say....bare in mind that this was real life tests, so theory which has been covered about 50 times in previous threads will do no good to this thread....try and get some actual evidence/tests.

[soop]

Just goes to show that money doesn't always buy power.

[Blown V6 Hatch]

All it shows to me is that LPG is just as shit as i thought it was....

LOL @ 50 rwkw difference from gas to petrol.

However, IMO the L67 CAI with the stock airbox is about the best you will do on a stock Ecotec. On higher power/blown set-ups they can and do become a restriction though.

I picked up 9 rwkw by removing the L67 CAI on my L67. While it doesn't sound like a lot, 9 rwkw is still a fair restriction.

[tommySV6Ute]

Nice effort you have made there HT.

I'd really be interested in some before & after runs with those Mace spacers. An impartial test would be nice if Mace were kind enough to send you a set & if you have the time..

[Dr HaxZaw]

out of curiosity what exhaust are you running if any?? cause having a sweet intake aint gonna do anything if your exhuast isnt that good

[MACE]

HamaTime,

Do you have the dyno graphs handy you can post up?

I'm surprised given that they're not a new item on the market with lots of feedback of them being better then the factory OTR setup from our own experience over the years along with other customers. Every car is different it is what it is I guess. Case in point an enthusiast recently was disappointed, understandably, with gaining only 2wrkw from a set of 1.9:1 ratio rockers on his L67. If those sort of figures were common they definitely wouldn't be a popular as they are as a mod.

As for the product being advertised as gaining 5 kw that figure is not at the rears and is with respect to the standard air box assembly without the factory over the radiator cold air intake, that's how it was tested on my VN 4 years ago.

As for having our range of products independently tested by professionals we've had it done before and am happy to have it done again.

Case in point streeet commodores had tested our twin throttle manifold on a VX V6 with bolt on's (which is on their website still for all to see) it wasn't ideally installed, but copped it on the chin and made a 3.5kw gain at the wheels for the world to see. For those fixated on peak power it would have been disappointing, however panning you head to the left hand side of the graph revealed gains of around 15% at the wheels, which was reflected by the reduction in quarter mile times by around .7 of a second.

[MACE]

As for practical testing results and additional constructive feedback, check out immortality's writeup below. He also did the testing on a VS

MACE Cold Air Intake

Kindest Regards,
Steve

[HamaTime™]

All it shows to me is that LPG is just as shit as i thought it was....

LOL @ 50 rwkw difference from gas to petrol.

However, IMO the L67 CAI with the stock airbox is about the best you will do on a stock Ecotec. On higher power/blown set-ups they can and do become a restriction though.

I picked up 9 rwkw by removing the L67 CAI on my L67. While it doesn't sound like a lot, 9 rwkw is still a fair restriction.

LPG is rubbish as a dual fuel setup, the higher octane rating of the fuel does have benefits, but it's all relative, you aren't going to see gains or even on par performance, running even the best LPG system on a petrol built/purpose motor. You need to rebuild and suit the build to a straight gas direct injection drive.

That being said, I despise LPG and I hate it on my car. However it is staying as I am upgrading. I have lost any interest I had in V6's....

Nice effort you have made there HT.

I'd really be interested in some before & after runs with those Mace spacers. An impartial test would be nice if Mace were kind enough to send you a set & if you have the time..

Don't have any before and after runs with the spacers. However, I noticed a significant increase in torque down low, the longer runners shift the torque band, and start the 'pull' alot earlier. Big fan of those two mods. Pair them with a decent cam and head work and the full potential will be realised.

Anyway, off topic. This is about CAI's.

out of curiosity what exhaust are you running if any?? cause having a sweet intake aint gonna do anything if your exhuast isnt that good

Read my thread.

Pacemakers into 2.25" Pipe with Redback Hiflo/straight through muffler.

HamaTime,

Do you have the dyno graphs handy you can post up?

I'm surprised given that they're not a new item on the market with lots of feedback of them being better then the factory OTR setup from our own experience over the years along with other customers. Every car is different it is what it is I guess. Case in point an enthusiast recently was disappointed, understandably, with gaining only 2wrkw from a set of 1.9:1 ratio rockers on his L67. If those sort of figures were common they definitely wouldn't be a popular as they are as a mod.

As for the product being advertised as gaining 5 kw that figure is not at the rears and is with respect to the standard air box assembly without the factory over the radiator cold air intake, that's how it was tested on my VN 4 years ago.

As for having our range of products independently tested by professionals we've had it done before and am happy to have it done again.

Case in point streeet commodores had tested our twin throttle manifold on a VX V6 with bolt on's (which is on their website still for all to see) it wasn't ideally installed, but copped it on the chin and made a 3.5kw gain at the wheels for the world to see. For those fixated on peak power it would have been disappointing, however panning you head to the left hand side of the graph revealed gains of around 15% at the wheels, which was reflected by the reduction in quarter mile times by around .7 of a second.

I don't have any of the dyno graphs handy. They were all just computer readouts, rather than actually beings saved/printed off. My apologies.

Cars do demonstrate varying results now and then, however I re-read my original post and noticed a couple of flaws/typeo errors which could be misleading.

1. The enclosed product was not a 'MACE' product, however being perfectly identical in parts, being an enclosed POD in stainless steel enclosure. Point of this discussion is the varying results between the L67 OTR intake and the enclosed POD dyno runs on my car.

2. The differences I noticed in driving after installing the L67 CAI = 0, apart from a louder induction hiss (which is actually quite annoying as it sounds like an air leak, similar to when I blew the Bleed hose off the throttle body after a bad backfire whilst tuning mixtures). The differences in driving after installing the enclosed POD = 0, more induction noise.

I know this goes against the widely thought opinion that enclosed setups do offer a distintive advantage over stock airbox/L67, however, the dyno gave these results.

Surprising given my insight and research into airflow and fluid dynamics. The L67 CAI has alot more bends and restrictions to the airflow, however it yielded more on the dyno sheet.

Anyway, the point of this discussion was to look into both the power outputs of LPG/Dual Fuel etc...how restrictive the Air Mixer cone is, and also how the different intake mouths (i.e. the L67 OTR vs Enclosed POD work).

[immortality]

If you refer back to my test results you will note they were done in real world conditions, what i refer to in particular is the heat soak issue associated with the factory airbox/L67 CAI. your testing would not have this issue because there is a bloody great big fan keeping lots of airflow into the front of the car (and the L67 intake) at all times. this airflow in the dyno facility is also right in front of the radiator to ensure big HP cars don't overheat so not really a good comparison to real world conditions.

with all other conditions being equal, the intake that provides the coolest inlet temps is going to make the most power.

can you post of pic of the enclosed POD set up you used in these tests.

cheers

Bart

[HamaTime™]

I've seen your tests, and they were quite comprehensive.

Agreed, Dyno tests do not reflect on the whole the real world conditions. But you are correct, the issue would be alleiviated when the car is actually on the road with normal air flow etc etc etc....

However, what I am trying to get at, is in spite of all the above evidence, all the theory etc...why did it come out with a smaller (albeit 1kw) yield on the DYNO. If the fan in front of the car pushing air into the radiator and through the OTR, if the POD setup is better in terms of airflow and greater pickup of cooler air Why wouldn't it show on the tests?

I don't have a picture of the POD set up, however it was a square stainless steel enclosure (pretty much same size as the mainstream marketed ones) with stainless steel lid, 3" K&N Pod Filter, sensor into the back/firewall side of the enclosure, MAF about 1" back from the enclosure (if that).

[IBLOWN]

Hamatime is right. At the end of the day a dyno is just a comparitor. He is comparing all these different setups.

[immortality]

However, what I am trying to get at, is in spite of all the above evidence, all the theory etc...why did it come out with a smaller (albeit 1kw) yield on the DYNO. If the fan in front of the car pushing air into the radiator and through the OTR, if the POD setup is better in terms of airflow and greater pickup of cooler air Why wouldn't it show on the tests?

because the dyno has a large artificial air flow directly into the radiator/ L67 CAI. depending on exactly where the fan was situated it would definitely favour the factory intake (especially if you have removed the plastic strip as we (delco and I) suggested. if the fan was right in front of the car/radiator it would put a huge amount of air into the front of the radiator creating a high air pressure zone benefiting the L67 CAI where as the enclosed pod would suffer in this situation because there is no real airflow over the bonnet headlight area where the enclosed pod would take it's air source from. in this situation with fan right in front of the car i would actually suggest that the enclosed POD filter would actually be getting hot air from under the bonnet because the area under the bonnet would have a higher air pressure then the area just in front of the headlight area. to simulate real world highway conditions you would need to conduct the tests with the fan at least a couple of meters in front of the car so that you would get equal airflow over the entire bumper/bonnet area

also, not sure exactly what order you did the tests in but i would expect to see slightly lower readings on the later tests as heat soak becomes a issue in the engine itself. especially if each subsequent power pull is done in quick succession.

the test with the gas mixer ring certainly are a eye opener though

[HamaTime™]

Video of the very first run, running 98 Premium with the Mixer cone on OTR, stock airbox - this is the 94rwkw run.

Fan is about 1 and a bit meters back from the front bar.

Each run was about 5 minutes after the other, gave the motor/exhaust etc a chance to cool down.

You make a valid point with the air benefiting the OTR as the fan pushes air directly onto it, however, I would have thought that with such a large volume of fast moving air flow going into the engine bay, that the cool air would find it's way to the POD fairly easily.

At the end of the day, it's interesting results. I have always been more keen on panel filters with air pushing directly through it.

If I really wanted some more power, I could fabricate a new manifold with longer runners/smoothed entrances with a twin throttle intake right under a massive filter hanging out the bonnet

[immortality]

If your intending to stay with the L67 set up i would recommend doing what is shown in the pic below. remove the plastic strip that cover the gap in front of the radiator (as shown in the pic) and use some sort of foam strips to seal the bonnet against the intake mouth. that way, when you do come to a stop the intake will continue to suck cold air instead of hot air from under the bonnet.

i also used a jig saw to cut about 1" of the front of the intake to make the hole bigger

[WogBoyz]

^^ dont some people also cut the top of the intake further back and open it up more aswell?

[GTP 85]

Good testing there bud.

As i have always felt, LPG is purely for budget motoring when you use the mixer ring/ cone setups. They will never make power as they create a huge restriction in the intake path. A restriction very much like what i heard about the V8 brutes a few years ago (VU? series) they made much better power than the ford 302(?) so they put a restrictor 'ring' in the intake to cap the LS1s a few kw?? Anyway, in your situation, if you want to make similar power on LPG (as is on petty) you have to look at a direct injection setup. Something that i would be interested in trialing on my race car.

As for the CAI systems. The problem with enclosed pods is that they soak heat in the box. The OTR's do this also hence it comes down to which one can continuously flow the most efficiently while driving to negate the heat soaking effects.

I have tried both SC6 and enclosed pod setups. Nothing wrong with the SC6 cai as it looked stock and tidy. But as most v6 owners were doing this same mod, i chose to try a different setup for individuality and (imo) a neater look again. I tried the enclosed pod with a metal box, small 90mm air feed in the guard. Neat look but soaked heat badly. I developed it further.... Heat resistant matting on the inside of the box, and also a larger cutout in the guard (the size of a panel filter) and a scoop facing the front behind the bumper. i know not many ppl are keen on cutting holes, but this one is not visible at all and its not a load bearing panel. This setup provides consistant power on the dyno. Probably due to it pulling air purely from outside the engine bay, without and restriction

Though it was a lot of mucking about, i now have a cai system that im happy with and has made a gain... if only 4-5 kw (with back to back testing). I can easily pull the headlight out at the drags to have a direct cold air charge to the pod.

Dont know if this will help much.. but its a slice of my knowledge

[HamaTime™]

Good suggestion Bart, thanks very much for the tip! Appreciated, I will most likely endeavor to fix up my L67 setup soon...nothing better than a DIY job. Best way to spend a Saturday afternoon.

Yeah people cut the L67 OTR's back to open them up and also use a heat gun to open it up a bit as well. Daniel (HoldenManDan) has done this on his L67 VS.

Good testing there bud.

As i have always felt, LPG is purely for budget motoring when you use the mixer ring/ cone setups. They will never make power as they create a huge restriction in the intake path. A restriction very much like what i heard about the V8 brutes a few years ago (VU? series) they made much better power than the ford 302(?) so they put a restrictor 'ring' in the intake to cap the LS1s a few kw?? Anyway, in your situation, if you want to make similar power on LPG (as is on petty) you have to look at a direct injection setup. Something that i would be interested in trialing on my race car.

As for the CAI systems. The problem with enclosed pods is that they soak heat in the box. The OTR's do this also hence it comes down to which one can continuously flow the most efficiently while driving to negate the heat soaking effects.

I have tried both SC6 and enclosed pod setups. Nothing wrong with the SC6 cai as it looked stock and tidy. But as most v6 owners were doing this same mod, i chose to try a different setup for individuality and (imo) a neater look again. I tried the enclosed pod with a metal box, small 90mm air feed in the guard. Neat look but soaked heat badly. I developed it further.... Heat resistant matting on the inside of the box, and also a larger cutout in the guard (the size of a panel filter) and a scoop facing the front behind the bumper. i know not many ppl are keen on cutting holes, but this one is not visible at all and its not a load bearing panel.

Though it was a lot of mucking about, i now have a cai system that im happy with and has made a gain... if only 4-5 kw (with back to back testing). I can easily pull the headlight out at the drags to have a direct cold air charge to the pod.

Dont know if this will help much.. but its a slice of my knowledge

Thanks Gilbert, after our discussions I was very tempted to try out a number of different setups and really ascertain the drawbacks/effects that LPG and in particular the mixer ring has on the power output. It's rather like having a breathing mask on with a very limited amount of air coming through, the engine really suffocates and the dyno figures and the driveability of the car really feels that. LPG is an interesting topic though...as I said above, the mixer/dual fuel setup is rubbish and is a no go zone for performance hunters. Run 1 fuel, and build your motor to run on that fuel....however, the benefits to my back pocket and my other financial needs are greatly appreciated, free's up alot of cash for me to be able to put into a house and a new car.

Very good point there (see above in bold). I was very impressed with your creativity with the setup of your pod, and the way you cut the guard. I believe we had a detailed conversation about this a few months back also.

One thing I have learnt is that the dollar investment to the power return. I could go out and spend big money on a CAI kit where the results given above and the feel under my foot prove little. To be honest, I have reached a stage where I have played and tinkered, tested and spent money, and it's gained little. Best money I spent on my car so far has been the exhaust (which was little cost), and the MACE insulator/spacer. End of the day, it's a slow engine and bolt on's and a different filter arrangement aren't going to build me a rocket ship.

Bigger and better plans to go on to. Aka LS1's.

[White Tiger]

be interesting to see the results of just the stock air box with out the otr,
or the enclosed pod with an otr,
on the same car along with the other tests just to see the true difference between stock and all the rest

[WogBoyz]

Good suggestion Bart, thanks very much for the tip! Appreciated.

Yeah people cut them back to open them up and also use a heat gun to open it up a bit as well.

ahh kk thought so, should do another test with the otr opened up more and with immortality's idea aswell

[Trayner]

If your intending to stay with the L67 set up i would recommend doing what is shown in the pic below. remove the plastic strip that cover the gap in front of the radiator (as shown in the pic) and use some sort of foam strips to seal the bonnet against the intake mouth. that way, when you do come to a stop the intake will continue to suck cold air instead of hot air from under the bonnet.

i also used a jig saw to cut about 1" of the front of the intake to make the hole bigger

Anymore pics of this mate ?

[delcowizzid]

K&N pods are know to not flow as much as a K&N panel filter theres lots of pod filters that shit all over K&N for flow cheapo wildcat pods used to be one of the best flowing in flow bench testing

[AirStrike]

K&N pods are know to not flow as much as a K&N panel filter theres lots of pod filters that shit all over K&N for flow cheapo wildcat pods used to be one of the best flowing in flow bench testing

Filtration tests on the same units?

[delcowizzid]

http://www.australianauto.com.au/HTM...hoot%20Out.pdf 3A racing FTW

[immortality]

Anymore pics of this mate ?

nahh, sorry mate. that was a quick MS paint sketch i did for someone else a while ago. basically what you want to do is seal the mouth of the intake off from the under bonnet area and prevent hot air getting in there when the vehicle is stationary or moving very slowly. i run a MACE enclosed POD filter on mine and i know with the testing i did (of both set-ups) which works better in my car/situation.

[WogBoyz]

Also in that pic i would prob cover the gap between the otr and the front body to direct air right into the otr