Custom intake question

[Drawnnite]

firstly, all those intakes look very interesting.
*drools at same time*

just out of curiosity.
how would a twin tb compare to say a single tb.
and then how would that triple tb compare? (and would you pipe the intake, or leave as 3 open tbs in bay?)

i doubt i would ever get one (imagine policeman asking to pop the bonnet while you're on p plates =P)
but id love to know they would compare in gains and so forth.

and its great to hear from people across the world =P

[ajvx01]

Letzride, you need to contact kalmaker mate...
My car was the twin tb as shown earlier in here and ran a kalmaker mafless tune via a map sensor and it was bang on accurate no timing worries or afr issues. I had a GREAT tuner but still the kalmaker software lets you get rid of the maf no worries.

So if u can get that software I see no reason why u can't get your itb set up tuned easy enough..

Also the air speed of twin 55mm will be different to that of three 55mms..


Drawn tite, I had cops pop my bonnet when it looked like this..



The pods were "safely secured" and the car wasn't illegally loud so I got let off with a few dubious questions and a "don't let me see any hoon driving or your toast" speech.
Aslong as my car passed emissions (never tried but it should have with the right tune) and I didn't have the ultra low springs in it I was all legal

Also twins are DEFINATELY better than a single tb but none of us have seen the triple used...?
I myself aren't sold there necessary or would help much over the twins but the look sexy!

[seq4x4]

firstly, all those intakes look very interesting.
*drools at same time*

just out of curiosity.
how would a twin tb compare to say a single tb.
and then how would that triple tb compare? (and would you pipe the intake, or leave as 3 open tbs in bay?)

i doubt i would ever get one (imagine policeman asking to pop the bonnet while you're on p plates =P)
but id love to know they would compare in gains and so forth.

and its great to hear from people across the world =P

All i can say is a single TB with pump most of the air into runners 3 and 4. With a twin TB, say like MRC itll even out the flow. Come racing twin TB has twin 55mm but the plenum is also double the volume as stock. Never seen inside one, but you can tell it is like putting the 25mm mace spacer in, without using a spacer.

Also AJ, where did you get your rad shroud cover from? It makes it look neat and tidy without the L67 OTR which ill be ditching for the mace CAI. Also i have a VS not a VT, so i dare say some slight mods will be required.

[ajvx01]

Your very right about evening out the airflow. I mentioned that earlier in the thread.. The Mrc item fixes that, I'm not sure but from what I've seen i'm not sure the come one would? The two tbs still are very central..?

My rad cover is a gen3 item, for you hit up BYE PERFOMANCE they make a sweet radiator shroud for vs's

[seq4x4]

Your very right about evening out the airflow. I mentioned that earlier in the thread.. The Mrc item fixes that, I'm not sure but from what I've seen i'm not sure the come one would? The two tbs still are very central..?

My rad cover is a gen3 item, for you hit up BYE PERFOMANCE they make a sweet radiator shroud for vs's

Thanks man, ill check them out.

[LETZRIDE]

firstly, all those intakes look very interesting.
*drools at same time*

just out of curiosity.
how would a twin tb compare to say a single tb.
and then how would that triple tb compare? (and would you pipe the intake, or leave as 3 open tbs in bay?)

i doubt i would ever get one (imagine policeman asking to pop the bonnet while you're on p plates =P)
but id love to know they would compare in gains and so forth.

and its great to hear from people across the world =P

well stock size tb is what? 65mm right? so a 65mm tb will have an area of 10,414.20mm a twin 55mm throttle body will have an area of 14,912mm so essentially you can flow alot more air. A triple 55mm tb setup would give you about 22,368mm of area allowing you to take that much more air into the plenum all at once at WOT.

Optionally if you went with something even smaller like lets say a 48mm throttle body (triple) you'd get 17,037.38mm of area and they would flow much faster than your bigger throttle bodies.

My thinking also was that you can space each throttle body so that it is between 2 runners and you should have very good distribution flow for the cylinders.

as far as real world results, I dunno what you would see.

I personally would rather just throw a filter on each tb as well rather than pipe it, because again, that pipe can only be so big and will act similar to being its own manifold.

[immortality]

see, my map based tune works fine the my huge cam and modded heads car atm, but Im tricking the system, skimpish is running the same tune that I have, but modified to his motor (atleast he was)...for us, the VE is maxed out at 200% at WOT and we need to "cheat to attain our tuning goals) I dont know how much "give" we have to this system we're running though....I'd be interested to see that program you speak of, especially since as soon as you take the MAF out of the equation, we have no way of seeing where the KR is in relative to our rpm and load...so we can't "fine tune" our setup for the maximum efficiency (unless one of you knows a mathimatical equation that I can create a custom perameter to this system.

.

For starters we are going to need to know what PCM you guys are using, what bins/definitions etc.

Best bet is to jump on the Delcohack website and see what those boys are up to. They are writing there own tuning software now.

Kalmaker is good, but expensive and they are still using DOS based software last time i checked. The Delcohack guys are miles ahead now.

edit: our ecotec is fitted with a 64mm TB standard, however on one side it has a "hump" that keeps one side of the butterfly covered until you reach approx 15% throttle so the TB is probably closer to 60mm cross section.

Cheers

[seq4x4]

So tripple 48mm tbs might be the go. At 220 each plus making the plenum up. Could still work out cheaper then twin TBs from MRC (dont have a price for them) and come racing ($1500)

The only issue i can see is the IAC and TPS...

[LETZRIDE]

$220 each? Buy a set of 4 off of a bike...they come in a million sizes and cheap, I have 8 sitting in my basement that I got for $160 that I've been playing with...Hell, I've contemplated just slapping on some haybusa or gsxr 600 throttlebodies (all 4 in a row and not breaking them apart) and calling it a day...but Im sure that would look pretty ghetto lol... I know you guys are in australia and it might be sh*tty as far as shipping goes, but check out this site ITB: Single Throttle Body

those tb's seem to actually be the easiest to work with, and they run about $169 each...I might go this route myself...

For starters we are going to need to know what PCM you guys are using, what bins/definitions etc.

Best bet is to jump on the Delcohack website and see what those boys are up to. They are writing there own tuning software now.

Kalmaker is good, but expensive and they are still using DOS based software last time i checked. The Delcohack guys are miles ahead now.

edit: our ecotec is fitted with a 64mm TB standard, however on one side it has a "hump" that keeps one side of the butterfly covered until you reach approx 15% throttle so the TB is probably closer to 60mm cross section.

I have no idea what kind of pcm we have? How do you find something like that out? we use hp tuners. I'll check out your guys software shortly.

I'd be interested to see if if can be used on our cars, and our stuff vice versa...or if it can't, I wonder if your pcms would work if you plugged it into our cars.

Curious, arent any of you guys running our american motors at all? anyone who swapped did they swap the pcm as well? And I guess this might be a silly question but, you guys use the 4l60e tranny as well right?

[immortality]

I have no idea what kind of pcm we have? How do you find something like that out? we use hp tuners. I'll check out your guys software shortly.

I'd be interested to see if if can be used on our cars, and our stuff vice versa...or if it can't, I wonder if your pcms would work if you plugged it into our cars.

Curious, arent any of you guys running our american motors at all? anyone who swapped did they swap the pcm as well? And I guess this might be a silly question but, you guys use the 4l60e tranny as well right?

Our early V6 models used the 808, then we progressed to the 165. not sure what exactly the later ecotec used but PCM numbers should be listed on the delcohack site.

Up until VT models (99) we used PCM's with memcal, then we progressed to PCM's using a flash memory set up.

Yep, we use the 4l60e. I don't think anybody has really imported a whole US engine.

Support for the V6 models is limited here also, probably more private stuff going on then anything else except Kalmaker.

[ajvx01]

So tripple 48mm tbs might be the go. At 220 each plus making the plenum up. Could still work out cheaper then twin TBs from MRC (dont have a price for them) and come racing ($1500)

The only issue i can see is the IAC and TPS...

Before you jump to a conclusion ask Mrc for a quote... I was happily suprised

[ajvx01]

Also the throttles in that web link look cool but I'm not sure how you'd mount up your tps? Since there not made for the right gear..?

The motor bike 4 throttle would be getto but sick!
I'd be HEAPS keen to see the results.
However I see the tps issue still being there?

As for the PCM of you have a memcal you could probably find a solution easy enough... As they don't have to be live flash tuned.

I doubt our memcals would be a straight swap as your cars have different dashes, power accessories etc etc etc.

However if u have a gm part number we could see?

[TI3VOM]

If any of you are handy here is a good and helpful read: StreetWagons.com • View topic - Ecotec Twin Throttle Bodies

[LETZRIDE]

good read, Im very tempted to use bike tbs for ease of use...but 4 tbs on a v6, people are gunna think I'm definetly retarded.

As far as the TPS goes, what about using the existing bike ones? I think they are a 5v wire as well? if not, maybe there is a plug in/resistor or something that will let the sensor talk to the pcm.

The other thing is they have twin butterflies in the throttlebodies (secondaries are there to I guess help smooth the idle) which I guess could be useful in helping to tame the car at low speeds...of you can just remove it all together lol.

Memcal sounds familiar for our pcms, I'll see if I can get a part number when I uncover my car from snow in the next few days...

[ajvx01]

If u could find a compatible bike tips that's awesome but you'd have to pretty lucky..
I fir one would love to the quad bike tbs done!

[seq4x4]

Any updates from the blokes across the ocean?

[LETZRIDE]

has been shitty weather, so I haven't attempted to go nab my car from its shelter lol to pull pcm numbers.

Other than that, Im just hear listening to other people throw ideas around and throw my 2 cents in every now and then. I can't do much about the intake until I get my tranny issues sorted out

Dunno where the other two went though? some good ideas got tossed around in here. I'd like to hear more myself.

[seq4x4]

Im planing on rebuilding my 4L60E, using parts from the states you can do a full rebuild, all new solenoids, shift kits, vette servo and a nice paint job for under $500AUD. If the problems is the operation of the box, might be worth looking into

[troykinsvt]

POSITIVE THIS PIC IS IN THIS MONTHS ISSUE OF STREET COMMODORES

[ajvx01]

Correct

Car was my pride and joy! Can't speak highly enough of the MRC PERFORMANCE manifold either...

[Tsunamix]

Couple of comments...

The point of the twin plenum is to increase runner length which improves torque.

However, if the inlet tract gets too long, throttle response will suffer.

To make the best of the situation, I would put a small pressure equalization tube between the 2 manifolds, of say 1" ID, and run a single MAP on one side only.

If it was a MAF it would be a different story.

[Irukanji]

48mm = 1809mm^2
79mm = 4901mm^2

Unless I buggered my maths. Plus this is cross sectional, so you'll be losing about 5% because of the thickness of the butterfly(or rather, the thing holding the butterfly), which also contributes to airflow turbulence itself, and potentially reduces the amount of air that can actually get through.

2 on each side, which is possible if you put the battery in the boot and stuck another airbox where the battery once was.

2 * 4901 = 9802^2mm
4 * 4901 = 19604^2mm
4 * 1809 = 7236^2mm
8 * 1809 = 14472^2mm

Then you have the problem of having to have 4 or 8 TB's all open at the same time(otherwise you're just wasting space with them).

If you have access to 2 plenum chambers, cut the TB off one, then cut an equal amount off the side opposite the plenum chamber of the other one, and weld it together, so you have a throttle body pointing out each direction. The reasoning is simple, if you have 2 x 79mm throttle bodies, and you feed them both using a 79mm pipe, you're not going to magically gain another 100% air, you're more likely to be having 100% air spread between 2, or maybe another 20-30%. Whereas if you feed 2 bodies with 2 79mm pipes, then you remove that problem, and you also magically gain 100% more air, by the fact you have doubled it. An airbox will fit in the space left by the battery, might need some tweaking, but it will. Otherwise you could just stick a pod on the end like everybody else and call it a day, and do away with the box.

If you could remove the headlights, you could make 2 scoops the size of the headlight going down to the 79mm tube or whatever size it is, simply cutting up an old filter to fit the gap and ensure the air is filtered, the faster you go, the more air you get into the scoops, and so on and so forth. Piece of fly screen over the hole to stop all objects bigger than 1mm, and then any tiny particles will be stopped by your filters. Might even gain a few horses at the higher speeds, because of the higher rate the air is flowing and being compressed into a smaller space.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: The piece holding the throttle body on, not the body itself. Just borrow/hire a plasma cutter and cut it out nice and clean, then stick it in the spot and TIG it up, or take it to an engineering mob and see if they'll do it for a few bucks.

[ajvx01]

I'd be keen to see that set up made in real life

[Irukanji]

CAR SPOTLIGHT >> SOLBERG'S 2006 WRC IMPREZA - Speedhunters

Might give you some ideas, ignore the fact its an Impreza.

[Drawnnite]

with the double throttle body idea.
like how troy posted. but different

would it not be best to offset the tb's if they are on either side of the plenum. so one does 1-3 and other 4-6.
or would this cause problems?.

and would 6 small tb's actually be possible on an ecotec?
would be a sight to see.