turbo project: beginning

[PaRaDoX]

hey guys, ive been waiting to find someone with good welding skills who will make my manifold for cheaply, now i found someone it can begin

im starting with
probbly a T3/4 ar.60 or 80 (huge mofo)
intending for it to spool round 4500rpm-5000rpm

initially running 3 psi boost (untill its setup for more)

my first aims are to get it working, dont care on initial power/boost

ive been collecting piping/headers and other things to help me in my mission,

ive got soo many questions its not funny


how much does pipe bending cost?
how thick should manifold piping be?? and how much would it cost
what material should i use for my face plates (steel), what thickness/material should it be?

my shopping list for boosting is
bigger injectors (L67 injectors probbly)
BOV
boost gauge
boost controller
external wastegate
new valve springs
diff upgrade to help put the power down

pretty much id be stoked if i pulled over 200rwkw and that is the aim

[Benji]

ummmmmmm isn't that spooling abit late in the reves

[VN_Luke]

not aiming to deter you at all! just some more questions to add to your list!

have you considered where you're going to put the turbo?
how you're going to run the dump pipe?
what you're going to do about oil/water feeds?
intercooling/piping?
what about your exhaust?
what about the poor auto?
how about the extra lots of heat under the bonnet?
you'll want your stall converter changed to suit boosty torque...

- standard single spinner diff should handle it if you drive gently...
- standard motor should be good for 10psi (ish)

check out a car called RAREVP from VIC .. it's a vp turbo 6 pushing over 200rwkw... home made looking setup from memory.. i reckon you could find a lot of good ideas in that car!

oh, as for pipe bending... if it's press bending then your local exhaust joint could do a lot of bends for you for a bit of beer... or a few bucks per bend..

face plates you can buy from ebay and lots of performance shops... just buy the flange that suits the turbo and weld it on the pipe....

apparently you can use vn v6 s1 tube headers as a good start for turbo manifolds.... otherwise you could find a set for a turbo buick in the states for a few hundred bucks, make a few modifications and bingo

Cheers!
Luke

[PaRaDoX]

cheers,

have you considered where you're going to put the turbo?
similar setup to V6 vengence

how you're going to run the dump pipe?
3" to the exhust, inbetween the headers and air intake with heat shielding

what you're going to do about oil/water feeds?
turbo im looking at is just oil, with returns to the sump

intercooling/piping?
similar to rarevp

what about your exhaust?
3" full system when the time is right

what about the poor auto?
stage 2 shift kit eventually

how about the extra lots of heat under the bonnet?
bonnet scoop with open vent?? maybe and more heat shields

you'll want your stall converter changed to suit boosty torque...
2500rpm, already looked into it

ive seen rareVP's setup its good as.. put alot of thought into it already!!

yes and vn s1 tube headers

[walesy]

and what about spooling so late? about 2500 would be better if thats where ur stallie will be for hard launch so when it gets to about 5000rpm it will have hit full boost

[PaRaDoX]

well maybe spool round 3000rpm

dump pipe where aircon pulley used to be

[PaRaDoX]

ok, i spent a good 3 hours at the wreckers playing with a vn, there was a s1 motor in the yard so i had to that to play with, then inside the car... decided on using S2 castie untill i can get extractors made as it does the job nicely and the s1 header just wont work...

also the piping is going to be run low near the sway bar (well above) then join to gether and come into the turbo from undernearth,dump pipe will then run straight down and run next to the header as low as possible ,

then ill heatwrap the piping to stop excessive reaching the inlet piping...

so far ive collected the manifold and some piping,

should i break the dump pipe into 2 bits to help when installing/removing it??? and have it bolt on...

im going to design/construt the manifold first untill the turbo, then get the turbo then do the down pipe... should have the first stage done in a month... getting all the pipes i need this week

the primaries will be the same length aswell

going to remove the aircon this weekend and do a test fitting of the headers before i go and get my piping/get it bent... then if needed make ajustments to the design

just so you all know, im not just throwing idea's around anymore, im actually doing this project... if anyway wants to help id be very greatful, even just idea's on how to make it better!!!

[defa]

i just went outside and had a look at my car. seeing i have the manifolds off right now doing what you are doing.. and i see what ya mean. series 1 just won't work.. they hug the motor a fair bit. i put the right side on the left side and it was nearly hitting the AC. i know you are taking yours off.. but still.
have you thought where your exhaust will go after leaving the dump pipe. that is my worry.. i don't really want it lower than the sump or i won't have an exhaust in a couple of weeks of driving..
i spose you could go back through to the back between your exhaust manifold and your intake pipe. that would work i spose..

[defa]

seeing you are getting rid of your aircon. why not talk to this bloke..
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....DME:L:RTQ:AU:1

[PaRaDoX]

thanks for the idea's ill keep you posted on it

[AirStrike]

Just a few things, 200rwkw from a boosted 6 is going to cause one of two things a stuffed stocker or an expensive build up.
Another thing to think of, the shift kit doesnt provide any extra strength at all if only effects how it shifts.
Main question, how much do you know about turbos? Because runnin a T3 60 trim at 3psi is wayyyyyyyy out of the best efficiency on its efficiency map. Its way in to the left in the surge limit area which limits power and as the name implies cause the turbo to surge as you have too large a turbine wheel for the exhaust to keep speed up to spin the compressor wheel.
To make the power you want with that turbo you are lookin at in its peak efficiency you would be looking at around 10-12psi.
Search on the net and learn how to read efficiency maps, will help with your choice alot.
AirStrike

[PaRaDoX]

cheers airstrike, well im still learning, but fast... only really got into the mechanics of cars in the last year (i wasnt a idiot but never really played round with them), been playing with Engine Analyze Pro,

and as foam has pointed out to me already a AR.60 will spool too early
so im after a AR.80 turbine... i like doing things my self most of the time, and im still learning, especially in area's ive never had any experiance such as turbo's

i know 200rwkw will kill a stocker, but if you've checked recently they'res no shortage of them and they certianlly arnt expensive... infact im getting a third engine (s2 this time)

and im going to work that...

currently my engine mounts are stuffed and my flex plates need replacing due to excessive wear on the ring gear by a DODGY starter motor... ive got the flex plate already........

what can i do to make the engine handel the boost better??

stronger head gaskets??
new cam shaft?
forged pistons?

i want to just get the system running first, then worry about power... but to do that i need to make sure i have the right fundamentals, such as turbo selection... ive got a new hard copy of a turbo manifold... including measurements and with angles... gonna just check it over tommorrow then go get half of it made..........

i need some suggestions on where to buy a turbo from, so far ive been looking

www.ebay.com.au
www.calaisturbo.com

any other suggestions / if anyone see's a T3/4 with a AR.80 compressor please let me know as id be very intrested...

im looking to spend round $200-350, not expecting a new turbo, dont want a turbo with more shaft play than a 13 year old kid who discovered the internet....

[AirStrike]

cheers airstrike, well im still learning, but fast... only really got into the mechanics of cars in the last year (i wasnt a idiot but never really played round with them), been playing with Engine Analyze Pro,
Like I said if possible have a look and see if somewhere has a tutorial on ready compressor maps.
and as foam has pointed out to me already a AR.60 will spool too early
so im after a AR.80 turbine... i like doing things my self most of the time, and im still learning, especially in area's ive never had any experiance such as turbo's
Personally I would rather it spool early on a stocker. You have to keep in mind that most turbo cars are generally OHC setups which are more rev friendly, because I dont think I would want to have to rev it to at least 3500rpm before I see any boost.
i know 200rwkw will kill a stocker, but if you've checked recently they'res no shortage of them and they certianlly arnt expensive... infact im getting a third engine (s2 this time)

and im going to work that...
Lmao thats certainly true, most can be had for $300 max in good nick.
currently my engine mounts are stuffed and my flex plates need replacing due to excessive wear on the ring gear by a DODGY starter motor... ive got the flex plate already........
See to this first as boost will only destroy them quicker.
what can i do to make the engine handel the boost better??

stronger head gaskets??
new cam shaft?
forged pistons?
Depends what you want to spend. If your not going for a rebuild I would look at some thicker head gaskets to drop the comp ratio and most importantly the tune. No offence to any back yard tuners but I would use the backyard one purely to be able to drive it a pro to get a proper tune.
If your going a cheap rebuild track down some of the supercharged L27 rods from the states, some new low comp pistons and arp bolts thru out. Clean it all up and some new bearings and that has completed the short. Top end isnt all that important on a boosted application I would look at new valves thru out and some roller rockers. Maybe some slightly over sized exhaust valves to help with the turbo.
i want to just get the system running first, then worry about power... but to do that i need to make sure i have the right fundamentals, such as turbo selection... ive got a new hard copy of a turbo manifold... including measurements and with angles... gonna just check it over tommorrow then go get half of it made..........

i need some suggestions on where to buy a turbo from, so far ive been looking

www.ebay.com.au
www.calaisturbo.com

any other suggestions / if anyone see's a T3/4 with a AR.80 compressor please let me know as id be very intrested...

im looking to spend round $200-350, not expecting a new turbo, dont want a turbo with more shaft play than a 13 year old kid who discovered the internet....
You wont find a hi flowed T3 (T4 exhaust housing, T3 compressor wheel) for that coin. You would be looking at a stock T3 from somethink like a VL, early saabs (78-88 are oil cooled, 88-90 are water cooled), ect.
Have a look around on american ebay for some new ones. If you can save your money up there are a few brand new TO4E Turbo T3/T4's on there that you can get delivered to your door for around $450

Any other probs dont hesitate to ask.
AirStrike

[defa]

are you planning on using an external wastegate. or internal.. if you are going to use an internal wastegate. if will cost you a fair bit to get one with an AR or .80.. there are t3/t4 turbos on ebay. i payed too much for mine. i payed about 550 for mine when they were first on there. ya can get them cheaper now sometimes.. the fella i bought my manifolds off said if i wasn't chasing too much power to use a turbo off a vl.. but that would spool up pretty early. that why i bought a bigger one.. if you are going to rev your car to only 5500 you don't want the turbo spooling too late.. my ca18det in my pulsar revs to 7000 and starts to spool up at about 2500 i think. (i haven't driven it a while). at the moment it needs a good tune and the adjustable fuel reg put on it. so i have only been reving it to 5500. so that means ya only get 3000 revs where it spools and not all that 3000 is full boost.. it is hard to explain what i am trying to get to. but ya just ending up changing gears all the time.. i know you have an auto so it will be different..
i just reckon for a v6 ya want power fairly early..
i am thinking people might dissagree with what i am saying. as usually the later your turbo spools usually the bigger the turbo and the more power you will get.. but there is no point having power when you don't have the revs to use it with..
does any of that make sense..
i agree with airstrike about the 3 psi too.. i think i know what he means.. if i ran my pulsar on 3psi. it would be all over the place. it just wouldn't be worth driving.
most internal wastegates are set at about 6 to 8 psi. so i would stick with that..

[PaRaDoX]

yeah the ACL copper headgaskets look nice..
you forgot to mention valve springs :P


ok im still trying to decide on a turbo
ill probbly slap a bigger turbo on it one day when the engines ready,

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/t3-t4-t04e-tu...QQcmdZViewItem

is it worth bidding on these, foam said it would spool too early but if airstrike is correct then id want it spooling round 1500rpm reaching max boost round 3500-4000rpm??

EDIT: thats a externally gated turbo

[AirStrike]

yeah the ACL copper headgaskets look nice..
you forgot to mention valve springs :P
Cant remember everythin

ok im still trying to decide on a turbo
ill probbly slap a bigger turbo on it one day when the engines ready,

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/t3-t4-t04e-tu...QQcmdZViewItem

is it worth bidding on these, foam said it would spool too early but if airstrike is correct then id want it spooling round 1500rpm reaching max boost round 3500-4000rpm??
up to you mate, but as defa said, you dont want something that doesnt start making boost till 3500 if your only going to spin the engine to around 5500 max (which is what you will be doing with stock internals). I personally would want something in the range of 2500-5000 give or take, plenty of power down low. If this was a V8 we were talking I would maybe say spool it up high due to the low down torque, but for a 6.............
EDIT: thats a externally gated turbo

Yadda Yadda word limit.
AirStrike

[greenfoam]

Something cheap and chinese like this might hold together for awhile (maybe!)

http://cgi.ebay.ca/T-70-Turbo-AR-70-...QQcmdZViewItem

Get a 12 psi waste gate and HANG ON, you could go for a turbo a bit smaller than this if you want to boost below 2000 rpm

[PaRaDoX]

i was lucky last night on a cruize i bumped into rarevp (turbo'd vp with 225rwkw)

he was able to show me his setup (using log headers)

he runs 10psi on a completely stock engine with just new injectors etc

oo thanks foam... that guys a shop looks like he sells lots of turbo's i might collect cash and bid on a good one


had a detour last night the auto bahn that is near me had a closing down sale.... 6x ngk spark plugs $10
the exhust tip i wanted $20, 5ltrs of oil like $10 lol, lots of other crap for cheap as...

they'res a turbosmart BOV ive got my eye on... everythings %50, but im gonna see if i can get it for under $200

[defa]

i know the rb30's are .8 of a litre smaller than a v6 but i was reading on another forum and some fella's had put t70's on there vl's and they didn't spool up till after 4000 rpm..

[cracker]

looks like an okay set up,
i would suggest using series one manifolds and turning them around piss off the air con and have them come around like your saying,
or you could get the series one manifolds and cut the big head fladge thing off and the buy some various lenghts bends of pipe and a docking saw thing with a grinder blade and start building tack welding the pipes together with small welds untill you have it looking how you want then get it mig'd by a pro. just my input

[greenfoam]

i know the rb30's are .8 of a litre smaller than a v6 but i was reading on another forum and some fella's had put t70's on there vl's and they didn't spool up till after 4000 rpm..

Yeah it's a big turbo for a RB30 but there's a guy local here with one on a Stock NA spec RB30 and pulls 260rwkw leaning out ! not sure on where it spools but the thing runs low 13s at 125mph? so it's fairly moving once it gets traction

[PaRaDoX]

cracker, it'd be a good idea except i dont own any welders...

well t70 it is then...should have the money in 2 weeks so ill buy it then,

i was gonna build the manifold first but i think it'd be a bad idea because i need to work out turbo placement first...

a auto bahn are having a closing down sale near me.. minimum of %40 off..

they'res a BOV in the window i have my eye on... its listed for $139...
but i recon i can get it for $50 or should i just get the turbo first?

[defa]

i see what you are saying greenfoam. that is pretty damn good. but how drivable it is for driving around the city and towns. it will be interesting. when i FINALLY get my car turboed with a smaller t3/t4 and when paradox has his car done with a t70. then we will both be able to compare which is more drivable. mine being manual i think i would rather it spooling earlier.. paradox having an auto might not matter as much spooling a little later..

[defa]

one thing also about the t70's. if ya can get a cheap wastegate the turbo's seem to sell for a little less that internal wastegate turbos. so if they are chinese crap turbo's it won't be much to replace.. i think mine is one of those high quality chinese ones..

[defa]

here is another kit that you can't have aircon with.. thought you might be interested in it..
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/V6-holden-tur...QQcmdZViewItem