Turbo VN/VP/VR information

[greenfoam]

I just wanted to start up a thread, detailing any information anyone knows about turbo charging the Holden Buick V6, so that in the future we can write a proper how-to about this. I'll be making my manifolds within the next month and will post some information about that once I have it done. They will be cut and rewelded VN headers that run forward along the engine bay rails. The local wreaker is going to charge me $100 for a pair of headers but I'll see if I can get them cheaper at the big wreakers in the next city up the road : ). The manifolds have potential to be a real pain in the butt to make and it looks like I'll have to move some of the stock water pipes on the VN to make room but it looks quite possible, then again a guy I know made some for his VN and he had no idea what so ever what he was doing with getting the turbo to run properly so it never did run fast (too small turbo, no ecu tuning no map sensor etc) but he did get the pipes made and had it all bolted up. I could buy his manifolds that are still in his shed but I'll try to make my own first.

For now, I just wanted to share what I've researched and calculated : ).
Firstly the stock engine seems to be plenty strong enough at least 8 pounds of boost and most likely much more than that. All you need to run a Turbo with the stock ECU is a 2 (up to 14.5 pounds) or 3 (up to 29 pounds!) bar map sensor, part numbers are...

2 bar map sensor. GM part number 16254539
3 bar map sensor. GM part number 16040749

You can order these from the states (not sure if you can get them here), I think they were about $35 US

Now this is the most important thing of all.
Download this pdf right now and burn it to a cd and keep it!
http://www.ttspowersystems.com/softw...cs/dm32man.pdf

At the bottom of this pdf is the voltage output of the three stock GM map sensors. 1, 2 and 3 bar. It lets you cross reference the voltages and redo your memcal to suit the turbo fairly easily (I hope the stock VN one is the same as the one bar in this pdf, pretty sure it is but Dr Bob can you confirm this?). Ok maybe not easily but you should be able to get it running fairly well fairly quickly with this information, Once I get my car turbo'd and tuned I'll have the binary available for download anyway.

I'm not sure yet on the fuel pressure and injectors, any experts on this?

Now, I haven't got so deep into it yet to understand how you can run your brakes with positive pressure yet, or if you just unplug and go muscle car style but those things are for later!

[STEALTHY™]

What power are you hoping for? My mate Just turbo'd his Ecotec, and is around the 200rwkw mark un tuned. hoping for 230 when tuned properly.

[rumpster]

any updates on your turbo V6 buick iam about to turbo my Vn series two i just rebuilt it with good pistons bearing cam heads done and crank done i put hypertech pistons in i was recomended them by a performance shop here in WA iam gona put a T70 or a T40b on it as i have got both of them any recomendations

[VTSSDUDE]

I was always led to believe you couldn't run a modified cam on a turboed engine. But I could be wrong or probably am.

Cheers,
Jim

[burnz]

a modified cam has to be installed otherwise you will not get the benefits of forced induction (for a v motor id use a supercharger, turbo for an inline thats personal opinion the expence for twin turbo or exhaust for a single sc is cheaper for a "v"motor)

[greenfoam]

any updates on your turbo V6 buick iam about to turbo my Vn series two i just rebuilt it with good pistons bearing cam heads done and crank done i put hypertech pistons in i was recomended them by a performance shop here in WA iam gona put a T70 or a T40b on it as i have got both of them any recomendations

Hi well the update is I have the money to do it now, but I'm also trying to save a deposit for some acres and or a house so I'm having trouble reaching into my pockets . But yeah the T04b or T70 will both do the job or probably best of all somewhere inbetween would be perfect, I thought the T04S trim with something like .60 compressor and around .80 A/R will be spot on, I see that some of the yanks run P trim T04's on their ~10 second buick V6 cars but they say it's a bit too wild of a ride for the street.

Since my first post I've seen that Capa sell the 2 bar map sensor here in Australia but it's well over 100 dollars. The VN will run 13 second quarters with the stock cam and a single turbo no problem, that's fast enough for what I want so I'm not really interested in a different cam or manifolds or anything really . But the skys the limit if you can build a strong enough engine.

You can order the silicon rubber tubes and the Aluminium pipe for the ducting the air from ebay.com in the states for pretty cheap, You don't really need to run an intercooler for 8 pounds, you'll only loose 20 or so hp but you will need to go a little easier on the spark advance when you do your memcal than if you had a good intercooler

[pete_pumpkin]

You'll still need a custom tune even with the new map sensor right? How do you plan on doing the tune ie do you know what your doing in regards to timing etc
Also I myself recently bought one of those 'Jaycar' interceptor kits and was wanting to intercept the MAP data for my soon to be turbo setup ; But I've heard that the kit is more suited to intercepting MAF information.

Yeah I don't know much about how the sensors work..Is it any use trying to modify the MAP data when it senses boost?

[greenfoam]

You'll still need a custom tune even with the new map sensor right? How do you plan on doing the tune ie do you know what your doing in regards to timing etc
Also I myself recently bought one of those 'Jaycar' interceptor kits and was wanting to intercept the MAP data for my soon to be turbo setup ; But I've heard that the kit is more suited to intercepting MAF information.

Yeah I don't know much about how the sensors work..Is it any use trying to modify the MAP data when it senses boost?

I can modify the memcal myself and the pdf file in the link in my first post will let anyone else that knows how to do that, convert the map table to a 2 bar boosted table no problem, it lists all the voltage outputs for the map sensors, stock and 2 and 3 bar. I know what timing it needs too thanks to some software called engine analyser, it can calculate these kinds of things (close enough to get it running 90% straight up anyway)

[VT-565]

Now, I haven't got so deep into it yet to understand how you can run your brakes with positive pressure yet, or if you just unplug and go muscle car style but those things are for later!

the brakes will be ok as your motor will not run positive manifold pressure all the time, especially with turbos, there is a check valve on the front of your booster that will stop positive pressure from inflating your booster, if you want to play it safe, plumb in a new one.

[pete_pumpkin]

I can modify the memcal myself and the pdf file in the link in my first post will let anyone else that knows how to do that, convert the map table to a 2 bar boosted table no problem, it lists all the voltage outputs for the map sensors, stock and 2 and 3 bar. I know what timing it needs too thanks to some software called engine analyser, it can calculate these kinds of things (close enough to get it running 90% straight up anyway)

Yeah that sounds really good if it works. I've messed around with programming micros at tafe. But this sounds still like a bit of work. ie I guess you need to know what location the appropriate data is meant to be at, and even then it will be a HEX value. So I don't know where you plan on starting - unless offcourse you know the correct memory locations etc. (edit: It's coming back to me (tafe) I guess you would dissasemble the code into a readable format ie address locations, opcodes etc)

If I got a 2 BAR MAP and a more powerful fuel system and did this reprogram what else is needed for the car to run nice at high boost? - you mentioned some thing with timing - would this be a similar process of reprograming?

I can imagine it being a little more complex to get everything right. Why would they do dyno tuning if it weren't. Different size turbo's etc boost at different RPMs etc

I'm interested to see how this pans out..

[VT-565]

About the manifolds too, if you are using modified cast ones, this could lead to cracking....it has to support the weight of the turbo, i have heard of people doing the same thing and they end up getting some made up out of steam pipe bends. just something else to be aware of.

[pete_pumpkin]

About the manifolds too, if you are using modified cast ones, this could lead to cracking....it has to support the weight of the turbo, i have heard of people doing the same thing and they end up getting some made up out of steam pipe bends. just something else to be aware of.

Yeah mine are made from thick steam pipe tig welded - solid as. I'm not sure where the dude who made mine got the pipe from, but I was looking around a local scrap metal place today and ended up buying a 10kg 6cm diameter 'steam like thickness' looking pipe for 65c a kilo - bargain. Seeing as it's the dump pipe, I don't think the welding needs to be as good as the manifold, so I'll try and see if I can arc weld it up.

edit: hmm, this pipe might be too small , looking around and 3" seams to be the more common size.

[pete_pumpkin]

I've just been doing abit of reading in regards to modifying the memcal. Apparently a good program to use is 'TunerPro' a free program.

http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/

What I need to find is a 'ecu' file specific to the 808 etc , this should give me a 'map' of where things are located.

[VT-565]

usually steam pipe manifolds are constructed out of pre-fabricated bends which can be bought from onesteel, smorgon etc and then they are setup in a jig and cut to size. as for your pipe from the scrap yard, you said it was "steam like" thickness, when actually, the only thing separating steam pipe from normal pipe is that steam is higher pressure rated and is extruded, thus it has no internal seam. as for making your dump pipe out of thick wall pipe, there is no need and it will probably set you back instead of being beneficial. your dump pipe only needs to be made from the same material as the rest of your exhaust system, as it does not bear much weight at all.

[greenfoam]

I've just been doing abit of reading in regards to modifying the memcal. Apparently a good program to use is 'TunerPro' a free program.

http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/

What I need to find is a 'ecu' file specific to the 808 etc , this should give me a 'map' of where things are located.

Easy as to find pete I'll send you a link

[greenfoam]

Yeah that sounds really good if it works. I've messed around with programming micros at tafe. But this sounds still like a bit of work. ie I guess you need to know what location the appropriate data is meant to be at, and even then it will be a HEX value. So I don't know where you plan on starting - unless offcourse you know the correct memory locations etc. (edit: It's coming back to me (tafe) I guess you would dissasemble the code into a readable format ie address locations, opcodes etc)

As you allready discoverd there are ECU files for this kind of thing, but you can also edit by HEX if you want to or have a memcal with no ecu file, I've done this with the lpg memcal

If I got a 2 BAR MAP and a more powerful fuel system and did this reprogram what else is needed for the car to run nice at high boost? - you mentioned some thing with timing - would this be a similar process of reprograming?
..

Nothing, you'll need to retard the spark under boost and add more juice under boost you do that very easily with software, that's all

I can imagine it being a little more complex to get everything right. Why would they do dyno tuning if it weren't. Different size turbo's etc boost at different RPMs etc

Yes yes : ) to get it exactly right you'll have to either get a wide band o2 sensor (500 bucks) or go to visit a dyno that has one of those.
I the end if you buy a Chinese turbo off ebay ($600 max) the wide band sensor, the 2 bar map sensor and an eprom programmer and make your own pipes you'll be up for somewhere around $1500 so it's not super cheap but for a car that has 12 second potential it's pretty good value

I'm interested to see how this pans out..

: ) I think everyone should have one!

[pete_pumpkin]

I've worked out that you need to rescale everything with a MAP reference which also means you loose a lot of resolution which will probably make the car idle rough etc

I'll get a wideband a/f kit and use winadl to check on things

One thing that i'm trying to work out is what table do I modify for the fuel side of things.

the VE as a function of MAP and RPM table?
or
Open loop A/F vs RPM and MAP table?

Idealy I guess both. I want to modify as little at a time as possible to keep track of changes.

I've read a lot of confusing stuff recently

I've read that the VE is above 100 when in boost. I figured that once I rescale the current table, that I need to enter values into the empty cells(now empty due to rescale(100-200kpa) that increase proportionaly rpm & map.
Looking at a graph of the current VE setup, I see that it peaks around 4000rpm, I asumme that this is where the max torque occurs - I'm wondering if this value will change much with the turbo - I guess that will depend on where the turbo will produce max boost; I'm thinking that the 4k rpm of the stock engine will be less inportant than the rpm value of wher the turbo boosts max ? I'm not sure if this is the way to go about it though..

I did read that the VE changes with the ECU's BLM, but where is the BLM data stored - I wouldn't expect it to modify the ROM directly?

The more I read, the more I realise I don't know

I will be using a rising rate fuel regulator and walbro high flow fuel pump as a band aid fix at first - I'm also looking around for a waste gate with a soft spring, ie 5-6psi, but the lowest spring I've seen is 9psi - cheap ebay job - which is all i want to pay eitherway (~$200-250) - I heard that you can get a custom spring made up though, so that might be an idea.

atfy.bin

[rumpster]

No news yet anyone ? i have just got my turbo TO4S 60-1 turbo iam in the process of making the manifolds at the moment

[pete_pumpkin]

I'm hoping that I won't have to do any tuning by keeping the boost low initially.

I plan on using a rising rate fuel regulator ie malpassi 1.7:1 , Walbro GS341 fuel pump and a wastegate with a soft spring - the softer the better I guess.

I know this isn't ideal. I bought the fuel pump a while back but haven't installed it as yet. Really I should have bought an external pump and use it in conjunction with a surge tank.

Also with the wastegate, the lowest boost that I've seen being sold on eBay is 9psi - I'd like to go lower offcourse as a safety precaution. I don't know if softer springs are availabe which are compatible with the eBay wastegates? will have to find out I guess.


Yeah I would like to find a definitive answer on this MAP upgrade bit - without knowing what to do - it's going to be pretty risky...

[greenfoam]

Pete, Rumpster, you can change the amount of fuel for normal driving around with the VE map, but when you floor it (no sure how close to the floor) but I reckon over 60 or 80 map it swaps out to the F60 fuel map for WOT air/fuel

"I've read that the VE is above 100 when in boost. I figured that once I rescale the current table, that I need to enter values into the empty cells(now empty due to rescale(100-200kpa) that increase proportionaly rpm &
map."

Leave the map chart the same size that it is. just change them. 100 will be 200kpa if you are running 14 pounds boost I rekon

The BLM learn can be turned off somewhere. I'm sure I have that off on my memcal but havn't done much tuining these last few weeks so I'm a bit scetchy at the moment of where. Maximum torque is at less than 4000 revs but that's where the engine is most effcient. If you are using a t04 s trim turbo the boost will ramp up (sharply if 8psi or more) from about 2500 rpm till 4000 something , you'll need to run less timing under boost too, start with like 12 degrees and go up from there, you could go up more depending on how much ocatane the fuel is and if you have an intercooler, I can't find a cheap waste gate with a 3-10 psi spring either so I'm thinking maybe it's best to forget about a waste gate and make some kind of restrictor plate in the exhaust and or inlet to limit the turbos speed or even a extra pipe that by passes some gas straight out the dump pipe? and just keep an eye on your boost gauge, dodgy maybe but you don't want to spend alot on a home made turbo VN wheres the fun in that

Pete I think with a low boost you wont have too much trouble getting it running straight especialy if you invest in a wide band sensor/meter

For your 2 bar map sensor go here

Part number 16040609
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com

Here's the Voltages

Manifold Pressure
(relative sea level / absolute) 2 Bar
MAP Output
14.31psi / 29.01psi 4.90V
14.00psi / 28.70psi 4.84V
13.00psi / 27.70psi 4.67V
12.00psi / 26.70psi 4.50V
11.00psi / 25.70psi 4.33V
10.00psi / 24.70psi 4.16V
9.00psi / 23.70psi 3.99V
8.00psi / 22.70psi 3.82V
6.00psi / 20.70psi 3.47V
4.00psi / 18.70psi 3.13V
2.00psi / 16.70psi 2.79V
0.00psi / 14.70psi 2.45V
5.00inHg / 12.24psi 2.03V
10.00inHg / 9.78psi 1.61V
15.00inHg / 7.33psi 1.19V
20.00inHg / 4.87psi 0.77V
25.00inHg / 2.41psi 0.35V
29.10inHg / 0.40psi 0.02V

Sounds like both you guys are going to be turboing around along time before me : ) good luck, I had a dream I had a turbo on the VN the other night. It could smoked first, second and half of 3rd gear and cut down 0-100 in slightly under 5 seconds :!) nice dream it was : ) and just about 100% accurate of whats possible

[commy92]

greeny what ever happened to your turboing??? im in the process of doing it and am looking for ever bit of help i can get. (please contact if you would like to donate to the "michaels turbo fund").. Im looking for steam pipe, what turbos i should be running. I want to go twin but i only want to run a low psi say no more then 10 until i get my new engine built. Basically i want to see how long this one will last running on say 10 psi so i can workout what REALLY needs attention on the new engine. Im making log manifolds to bsically come up off the heads then run along the side of the rocket covers, maybe a bit lower, then pop out the front. Then run a turbo on each side. Running dump pips down each side with twin cats the running into a straight through 3 inch.. prob stay with the 2.5 until i got the extra $500 for the 3 inch manjey. Anyone got any recommendations for me and what i should/shouldnt do. Sorry for bringing this old thread back from the dead its just im having ALOT of problems finding information on turboing the buick engine. P.S where can i get steam pipe from???

Michael (commy92)

[pete_pumpkin]

try this place for steam pipe etc

http://www.matthewdavis.com.au/index...d6a74d98d4ad59

[turbovp]

Hi guys I just read about your projects and had to join the forum.I have been building a turbo v6 for the past year or so and am nearly finished.I have built my own manifolds( including the inlet manifold ) intercooler and pipework.The turbo is a to4 p trim and should be good for around 500 hp. I would love to hear how you guys are all going and swap some photos.

[foammedia]

Commy92, I bought a V8 so I forgot my turbo V6 idea

[commy92]

lol.. greeny whyd ya do that.. lol got any inside info that you didnt share up above to help me out?