crane 286 degree'ing

[ari666]

car just came back from dyno, 110kw

the dude said he couldnt get it to ping so his guess was that the 286 needed to be advanced (i installed it straight up). i have all the kit i need to do the job, but have been told that finding true TDC on 308's is almost impossible without taking the heads off due to the spark plug angle.

so here is me, trying to cut corners.

has anyone played around with the advance on the 286 crane cam? if so what degree did you set it at, i have found another forum saying 4 degrees, but i wanted to get second, third and even fifth opinions if i could.

i really really really CBF taking the heads off to find true TDC

110kw is gay.

stay tuned for a cheap VK commodore on ebay over the next few days

[greenfoam]

You dont need to take the heads off to find TDC, cam timing depends on the rest of your motor, you can't just say 4 degree advanced, some motors will be faster 4 degrees retarded, it depends on what other parts you have in it

[v8_bomberdore]

was the cam diled in correctly coz if its not this can hinder power

[vyjess]

u must have at least 10.1 comp, good manifold and carby, extractors and good exhaust to make good power with a 286! if its a standard engine u r wasting your time worring bout cam timing!

[ari666]

*yawn*

thank you for letting me know what i need to do to my engine. p.s. for the record, 9.5;1 is fine, which is what i have.

degreeing in the cam doesnt matter didly squat what you have done to the engine. it is the method to find true top dead center and center of cam lobe overlap.

so, back to my question;

does anyone who has this cam know what degree advanced they should be? straight up is not the way to go, and i want experience to talk please.

[ari666]

was the cam diled in correctly coz if its not this can hinder power

sorry, no it wasnt. i installed it straight up and it obviously wasnt the right thing to do.

everyone i have spoken to so far has said "a couple of degrees" which really isnt helpful.

[vyjess]

the 286 i have in my engine dialed in straight up and makes good power! u will find advancing or retarding cam timing 2 or 4 deg mite make beter power but it will only b 10kw here or there! if your cam timing is out? it is way out by the power figures your engine is making. if u installed the cam straight up and your happy u timed it properly with 9 links from dot to dot at tdc? id say u have problems ealswhere

[ari666]

yeah the chain is nine links, checked and rechecked. dyno guy was shaking his head a bit too. his comment was "i dont understand, its all there, but we couldnt get it to ping"

there may be a slight problem wih fueling due to it just running a crap in tank fuel pump, so gonna remedy that this weekend. might put the holley 600DP on it too to see if the quaddy isnt holding it back.

well anyway i got a rollermaster timing chain, so am gonna try 4 deg advanced, but if yours is straight up and delivering power then it must be something else.

i dont get it really, engine is running fine, no missing, nice lump in the cam, all cylinders even around 130psi, and the weirdest thing is on my way home from the dyno i BURNED a new model audi quattro...

*edit, is yours a 286 EFI? cos' that would make it a whole nutha story.

[383 hatch]

Whats the exact specs on the engine?? Manifold, heads/headwork etc....Would make it much easier to find whats wrong if we knew the specs!

[ari666]

Whats the exact specs on the engine?? Manifold, heads/headwork etc....Would make it much easier to find whats wrong if we knew the specs!

i just finished putting specs up on the "my ride" thing. click the link under my sig

thanks

[Smitty]

.....

i dont get it really, engine is running fine, no missing, nice lump in the cam, all cylinders even around 130psi, ......

hmmmm....
you reckon at least 9.5:1 comp (in an above post)
but only 130 in the cylinders??

you have a problem, real 9.5 should give you at least 150
and on a new engine above 160psi

As you said
"dyno guy was shaking his head a bit too. his comment was "i dont understand, its all there, but we couldnt get it to ping"
I dont think you have anywhere like 9.5 ...more like stock comp of 8.6. you will not ping at 8.6:1

From your pics it looks like yr heads have not been sliced ...and the chambers looks bigger (less comp again)
Yr pics dont show it but you got flattops or dished pistons?

[greenfoam]

I agree ^^^^^ the chambers have been cleaned up, I don't think the compression is anywhere near enough. To much cam and not enough compression allways ends badly

[383 hatch]

Yeh, well in his my ride section it says standard crank, rods & pistons. Standard pistons will give no where near 9.5:1 comp, especially when (as mentioned above) the chambers have been opened up. I would say it would have less than stock comp.....The neddies are missing because it's over cammed!

[vyjess]

put the 600dp on it give the dizzy a turn and make sure u have at least 36 - 38 degrees total advance and give her another run! if ur down on comp a bit more ignition timming always helps!

[383 hatch]

More ignition timing is never going to make up for 1-1.5 full points of compression....

[Reaper]

Are the pistons dished??? My stock as a rock (never had the rocker covers off) 5 litre was pulling around150psi in each pot. It was 8.5:1 compression (at the most)

My 4 bolter with a stock cam (approx crane 276 - 214 duration and 464 thou lift) with flat tops and a static compression of 9.5:1 was pumping around 180 lbs on each pot. I suspect you cam is to big for what you have. Cannot see how a stock bottom end will get enough huff for your puff.

Reaper

[383 hatch]

If the pistons are stock, they will certainly be dished. As has been suggested, this engine should be pumping out heaps more compression with a compression test if it did indeed have 9.5:1. There is a perfectly good reason why it wouldn't ping on the dyno....

[ari666]

omg, derailed lol!

anyway, no, the chambers have not been taken out, just polished up with wire wheel and the dags taken off. the pistons are dished but stock comp is 9.4;1 on the black motor before it went to ULP? heads have also been shaved. the pic on my ride section was before they went off to get finished. k-lines, seats, acid bath, crack test etc all been done.

[greenfoam]

omg, derailed lol!

anyway, no, the chambers have not been taken out, just polished up with wire wheel and the dags taken off. the pistons are dished but stock comp is 9.4;1 on the black motor before it went to ULP? heads have also been shaved. the pic on my ride section was before they went off to get finished. k-lines, seats, acid bath, crack test etc all been done.

Either way the cams too big and the compression is too low (whatever it may be). The 286 is a big cam for the old heads, there's been plenty of other people with the same combo also make very little power. If you were to do something so simple as change the cam to something more suitable you would have a much faster car

[ari666]

its really stange though, because the cam thats in the car is only .001 thou lift and 8 degrees duration bigger than the previous cam which gave me uber power.

according to mr ellery
VK blue option L31 (VT engine prefix) 9.2;1 stock compression

regardless of all that crap, what we are getting into is not what i was asking.

there were three different standard camshafts for holden 308 up to VN when they change to EFI, there were also seven different standard timing chain settings. the problem is that i dont know which timing chain setup is on my block. so in all honesty i could be running it at 2 deg retarded just by using my current chain.

what i was asking is, is there someone out there that has this engine setup and what degree did they set their advance to?

i can go all out and drop it in at 4 degrees advanced, but if i am currently retarded by 2 deg that would make me 6 deg further advanced than where it is now which might make some serious detonation.

please can we stay forcused on the question. thanks.

(god, you know what? daling in this cam would prove less of a head f.. than getting an answer)

[delcowizzid]

advancing or retarding isnt going to raise the power much at all it mor shifts the torque curve up or down the rev range you may gain or loose a little power but not a huge amount.get a degree wheel and the cam card for the cam and time it up on the manufacturers specs

[greenfoam]

Well I'm assuming for cam is dialed in correctly allready, some of the factory chains have inbuilt retard some are straight up. Do you have a factory chain or an adjustable?. It's not just the duration of the cam that matter's the intake and exhaust valve timing can be all over the shop and very different between two cams of the same duration. The 286 has ALOT of overlap and is famously bad in the low/mid range and also needs alot of compression to do anything decent. If all you want to do is find TDC you just need a degree wheel and a stopper in the number one spark plug hole/ You hand turn the engine over one way untill it hits the stopper (mark the wheel), then back the other way untill it stops again (mark the wheel) inbetween those two points is TDC

[ari666]

If all you want to do is find TDC you just need a degree wheel and a stopper in the number one spark plug hole/ You hand turn the engine over one way untill it hits the stopper

yeah i offered that idea to the dyno guy but he pointed out that on the black's the spark plug angle is only a few degrees higher than flat on the piston so getting an accurate TDC is next to impossible. because when the piston raises the stopper is pressed at 10 degrees, rather than the 45 or so it would need to be accurate.

then following on from that, the 1 and 2 lifters would need to come out to get accurate lift readings due to the .004 or so lash in anti-pumps. (i.e. i couldnt put my dial indicator on the end of the pushrod)

i have an old solid around here somewhere i can put in for the test but it still means taking the inlet manifold off AGAIN! (had to redo it after the build cos' spermatex gaskets have a sticky side and apparently they like to stick to the block but not the gasket. there is something to be said for cheap gaskets and a bucket of RTV high temp silicone)

and i dont mean to be a pain, but i am very aware of the fact that advancing and retarding the cam generally only moves your power band around and has very little horsepower benefit, however if i am currently running retarded (which seems to be the case according to the ellery's manual) then advancing the cam will give me a definate boost.

remarks on the cam card; INTAKE LOBE LIFT AT TDC = .081 which would mean that if i am retarded (which a lot of you are probably thinking right now) then lobe lift @ tdc would probably be 0.000, by advancing (or even zero'ing) i would be allowing that little extra air/fuel in and bumping up piston psi (willing to be corrected)

gah, i dunno. i do appreciate everyones input. i think the best option is probably stick in the new chain@ 0 degrees, if it is currently retarded then i will see a boost, and then if i want more advance, bump it up later. i just dont really want to be doing the same tasks over and over again, i.e. removing and replacing timing cover, inlet manifold, possible sump if the front seal gets naffed etc etc etc.

and coolant really isnt cheap.

*edit: sorry, i have a factory gearset fitted at the moment. when the build was coming to completion, all the little bits and pieces i needed and forgot about stripped me and i couldnt stretch the $150 for a new gearset. instead just replaced the chain for 30 bucks. yeah, i now know the importance of dialling in the cam while the engine is out of the car and your heads are off :S

[stocky]

whats with the deleted posts in here? they were on a similar topic and had some good info in there

[Smitty]

yeah i offered that idea to the dyno guy but he pointed out that on the black's the spark plug angle is only a few degrees higher than flat on the piston so getting an accurate TDC is next to impossible. because when the piston raises the stopper is pressed at 10 degrees, rather than the 45 or so it would need to be accurate.

huh...???

with a bloody big bolt welded into an old sparkplug (my tool of choice)
and
then screwed into the plug head port (the head is on obviously)
its gunna stop the piston whether its flat...or 90° to the piston top
dont get this