I own a 1999 VS Ser III Ute. 5.0 auto. Its running pacemakers, twin VS V8 cats and an open single 3" system. Its only got 92000 K's on the clock, mostly highway cruising, but i want to update the car.
Id like to give it the 355 treatment, but keep it mild for long term reliability. I was thinking around the 250kw and 530 Nm kind of mark. Im not after massive accelleration and will be keeping the 3.08 diff...... for now. The car is used only a few times a month (i have a company car)
I have a few questions about what else on the car needs to upgraded to handle the extra power, to keep it reliable. I dont want to do the motor and find im buying a new gearbox ever 12 months.
do i need to upgrade the fuel pump?
Do i need to change the stall converter? (still not real sure how they work...lockups, no lockups?............. im an electrician ) PS..... i have a trans cooler.
Do i need to do anything to the gearbox... will it handle the power?
Is it a good idea to remove the standard motors cooling fan and put in a thermo fan? That thing must be dragging power down!
Do i need Roller Rockers?
If there is anything else you kind folks think i should know, do or inquire about to make this build a reality, id be happy to hear your opinions.
Gday mate, welcome to the forums. I am currently building a 355 stroker, so I should have answers to all your questions, but I don't haha. I'll tell you what I do know, and hopefully someone more knowlegdable can fill in the rest.
Depending on how mild or wild you want your stoker to be, and depending on the cam choice, you will most likely need to upgrade your stall convertor to be able to get the most out of your engine combo. Eg, if you build something like I am, with a 286 cam, the power doesnt really kick in until around 3000rpm. If you are running a stock stall convertor, it will be pretty sluggish until it hits the powerband, whereas if you run a 2700 stall convertor, when you nail it you will be instantly hitting your powerband. A trans cooler is a good idea, every auto should have one.
If you are talking 250kw at the flywheel, the as long as you haven't thrashed your gearbox, it should hold up to the power fine. However if you are looking at 250rwkw, then I would say a stock auto may not be up to it, especially if you like to drive with spirit. Gearbox rebuilds are relatively cheap these days, so if you are after 250rwkw head down to a few auto specialists and see what they can offer.
I would say yes to the cooling fan, v8's always need more cooling.
Unless you stick with a relatively stock cam, then yes you will need higher ratio roller rockers.
If anyone has more to add, or some corrections to what I have said then go for it.
Blowing my own horn here, but depending on whats on the engine already a high volume/high performance oilpan. We hear of so many cars whacking the engine due to overlooking this part. Plus the windage tray will unlock a few more KW's..
There is no such thing as stupid questions, Only stupid people.
running thermo fans on these engines will flow more air, thus helping to keep it cool, but you wouldnt notice a power difference if you swapped from the clutch fan setup to electric because its just so minimal. You would need to run thermos if you are looking at adding a gilmer drive belt setup though.
Betts........ thanks for your input to this.
Im not after a wild motor. Just something more like the stock 6.0 gen 4. My brother has just bought SS and i loved the torque response of the Gen 4.
His SS weighs almost 1900kg and my ute weight 1430kg....... so similar power should see some awsome results.
Will definatly look into the stall converter upgrade with the motor......... may upgrade the diff later on down the track if i feel the need.
The 286 is something i have heard good things about and probably will be aiming for. Its not a daily driver so i guess something like this should be fine.
Now.......... stall converters? I have read the stock unit has no lock up. from what you say im guessing the 2700 rpm unit will lock up and give me full power up to 2700rpm for max acceleration then do what ever it has to do to stop the gearbox going BANG!
Am i close?
Roller rockers........ still not sure of the sdvantages they give biut i guess if they are on most performance engines, they cant be a bad thing. I cant rule out a blower later on down the track (a few years down) so probably better off to put them in from the start of the build.
Fan........ bugger it, i like the idea of it so i will do it.
What sive davis craig is best in the front or a VS or can i fit VT thermos ? I have read of some folks doing this on here........ not even sure if VT's have thermos
Trikkben........... great point! I guess this is not an expensive addition....... a larget volume oil pan. Is it an advantade to hold larger volumes of oil or other reasons ? Id love to hear your advice on it.
As for the windage tray............ mate.......... excuse my ignorance but ive never heard of it? Im a lecco for gods sake! Some info would be great!
Crewsy........ not planning on a glimmer belt.......... a big roots blower out hte bonnet would fulfill my wildest dreams but with a home loan and 4 kids.............. its not going to happen.
Im guessing that from what you say.......... if i need money to either replace the stall converter or replace the fans........ im better off replacing the stall converter? Im getting that feeling.
I have read that VT thermos are used........ are they a simple bolt in option?
PS............. the ute has to live forever........ Peter brock sat in the passneger seat and signed the dash for me on request! Thats better than a blessing from the pope in my books. I have a pic of him sighning it. Will have to wash it and put a few pics of the old girl up in my sig!
Im lovin this site
You should be able to get around 240rwkw or so with fairly common parts (depending on who dynos it could be less or more), without needed roller rockers, around the 230 degrees duration (like the 286) is a good size cam to have for a mild 355, it's a fairly mild cam in a engine that size (bit grumpy in a 304 tho).
9.5 or 10:1 compression, little bit of head porting a good manifold (low rise TP dual plane, TP single plane, single plane harrop) any of those should make that power, all offer different power curves but will all get you there. And a suitable cam will get you there. You will need a better fuel pump and something like Bosch 706 cream top injectors. VT thermos wont fit (too wide) but AU Falcon fans will
I was talking more about 250kw at the flywheel..... not after a 500hp monster.
More than this and it will be useless as far as i know. Whats the point in power if you cant get traction and i cant afford the gear to get this much power to grip in a light backed ute. It wheelspins enough now with the stock 5 liter.
Its been lowered a 3 inches in the back, 4 in the front. All pedders adjustable struts, springs, dirty great big sway bars, stopped the axil tramp off the lights but not the wheel spin.
Too much i read about utes with 800hp and still only doing mid 12 second 1/4 miles. Wheel spin is a bastard and i want to keep it all sensible........... to a point
The 286 crane cam is sounding popular! Will be interested to see what the engine builders say when i speak to them. Cant wait to have a chat with them about the project.
Something i was just thinking about............ I have the VT Roller cam motor in my ute..... its a 99 model.
Is there a limited range of cams available for this motor?
I know COME have done a lot of development on it and have cams to suit. It would have been done when i bought the ute and could afford it but noone had cams for the roller cam motor. I kept ringing COME and they told me...... were working on it. rang back and rang back with the same response.
Got married, bought house, had kids and then found they had a cam for the motor. But....... couldnt afford it any more.
Im now in a position where i can.
Brewerboy, Depending on what you wanna do with the car, what rev range it will see and your budget affects what kinda of sump you would need. If it is just going to be used as a street car won't see the strip and won't be circuit raced, i would recommend an entry level pan, this consists of a High Volume Ear (Oil Reservoir) and Multi Louvre windage tray. If you decide to go for an upper level race pan, internal componets are fitted ie. Control Baffles, Gate sets, Directional Baffles, Bolt-it Uni-Directional Mesh windage tray.
Of course ther are Level's between Entry and full on Race pans. If you want anymore info PM me, we have a website etc. but as im not allowed to advertise our product without authority, i can't say to much more
There is no such thing as stupid questions, Only stupid people.
Im not planning on a big reving motor and i dont flog/street race/do burnouts so do i really need it? If its going to make the engine more reliable im all for it but if its only needed for a motor thats going to be driven hard......maybe not.
I simply cant afford to drive it hard and break things.
Will send a PM
Nice to hear of another ute with a Peter Brock signature, mine was signed as well just before he passed away, I couldn't even consider of getting rid of it!
Your absolutly right about the cam ect for future upgrades. A bower is just a dream. Id love one but after reading your soments i got thinking i may just plan for the stroker. I just did some numbers and 250kw and 520 Nm at the flywheel will give me a better power / weight ratio than a brand new GTS. the rest of the car wont compare but hey...... he numbers look good
ok... so im best to do the diff and stall converter.
3.45 diff, 2500 to 2700 rpm stall converter........... whats that going to cost me?
If your diff is in fairly good condition and doesn't need a rebuild, then swapping the gears over is relatively cheap. Expect to pay around $500 or less for the swap over, if you provide your own gears. There are plenty of second hand gear sets on ebay and in local trading papers.
Stall converter could set you back anywhere from $400 to $1000, depending on where you go. Best bet is to go and talk to somebody who specialises, they should ask you all the specs of your car (engine specs, diff ratio, tyre size and diameter etc) and then make you something to suit.
Those figures look fairly nice, in a car 400 odd kg lighter than the gts then it should give you a bit more go
Model Weight Power Torque KG/KW KG/Nm
WRX 1410 195 343 7.23 4.11
SS 1789 270 530 6.63 3.38
GTS 1850 317 550 5.84 3.36
My Ute 1430 250 520 5.72 2.75
Just did some calcs and the figures look good. The WRX has 4.44 final drive which would help it boogie though.
If i get the gearing right... it should crank.
just put yt supercharger kit on it, u dont have to change a thing its basicly a bolt on kit and would have just bout the kw as ya 355 u want and probaly a heap more low down touque! u can buy them for bout 5k and by the time u buy all ya 355 bits and get sum 1 to do all the machine wok and bolt it together u will blow 5k easy!
YEah i thought of that......... id love an STA blower. I just love the look of them. And the simplicity of bolt on power.
Im not confident the stock 10 year old 92000km motor will last too long under boost. Its already leaking a bit of oil in a few spots.
I also want to keep it looking stock for mr insurance man.
One of my brothers friends bolted a blower on his car and it spends more time getting repaired than being driven, but maybe his is an exception?
Loving the input folks...... all ideas and thoughts are welcome.
90000kms the motor is only just run in! haha
I was originally going to go with a blower setup on my car, it's only just clocked over 90 000kms, but if its leaking oil already like mine was then I didn't think there was much point. If you put something like 3.7 or 3.9 gears in then it would absolutely hammer!
most oil leaks with these engines r just loose rocker covers! these engines will go forever at least 300 - 500 thousand ks anyway.
Mine was leaking from the rear main, and also had a coolant leak at the head.
If you are only looking for around 250kw at the fly then you wont need anywhere near a 286 cam. There should be a smaller roller cam that will get you there without having to run a high stall behind it and you wont need to change your stock manifold either.
If you run too big a cam you will need the stall converter, higher comp and definately a different intake manifold. You would probably be looking at changing the diff ratio also.
For example if you run a 286cam on a 3000rpm stally with the stock manifold your power band will be between 3000rpm and 5000rpm where the manifold rolls off quickly.
Stick with something like a crane roller 889711 214/214@.050 and 464thou lift and it will work between 1600 and 5000rpm which will get you going on the stock manifold. If you run some 1.65 to 1 ratio roller rockers and some basic headwork I think you will be happy.
I front ended mine into a traffic light one night in Tamworth. A cattle truck had stopped at the lights and when he drove off... left a wonderful layer of cow poo slime on the road, which i drove around the corner through.
The back end momenteraly stepped out on the poop and then bit on the dry tar, pointing me directly at the traffic light.
funny thing was a cop car was stopped at the red light on the other side and saw the whole thing which was great cause they didnt charge me and put it down to "road conditions" on the report.
But the ute was busted good. Front end hit the front of the motor and i dont think the mechanic at the smash repair joint fixed everything properly. Its always sweated a bit of oil from a couple of spots on the front around the seals. Body work was wonderful but the mechanic sucked the big ones!
I really think it needs a strip down and rebuild. Its time!
Pinky............. now what your saying sounds like what im after. I really want a bit of money left over to fix a few more things on the old girl other than the motor.
I was looking for a rebuild that would utalise the stock manifold, and what your saying is more like what im after. I know........ boring........... but i just dont need massive power. I want to give the old girl a birthday and make it go better.
Should be able to do it i recon
Sweet, let us know how you go.
It wont be boring mate. Dont forget the holden 355 when set up can produce shit loads of torque down low. Makes for good daily driving. Plus keeping the comp down keeps your options open to a bit of boost later on if you should get caried away.
Thanks so much for your input to this! I really apreciate it.
I dont really have anyone else to talk to about it and when i found this forum i know i would be at home
Will take the ute to work tommorow instead of the work truck and take it..... dirt and all.... to see the engine people for an introduction and a chat.
Will keep you all informed.
I see this thread running for a while