HSV double-row timing chain vs timing gears

[savage1987]

Can anybody give me a good reason or 2 for replacing my current timing gears with the HSV double-row chain? I've heard the gears aren't such a great idea on a daily driver.. but I don't know too much about them. I bought the car with timing gears freshly installed?

EDIT: "I bought the car with timing gears freshly installed?" - lol "I'm Ron Burgundy???"

cheers
Sam

[V85000i]

they sound sweet but i've heard timing gears can damage bearings through harmonics, i got them on my HQ 253, but that's a weekend thrasher not a daily driver.

[Blown V6 Hatch]

HSV double row chain????? When did the HSV's come out with a double row chain?? When you say timing gears, do you mean straight cut timing gears or just freshly replaced normal timing gears??

[greenfoam]

Pretty sure the Group A runs a double row chain, because they used to break at Bathurst in the old Group A days and I'm sure they would have fixed it with the Walky or earlier. I know those two cars were HSV's greatest effort ever and that's not a typical HSV but still

[pandaman]

Pretty sure the Group A runs a double row chain, because they used to break at Bathurst in the old Group A days and I'm sure they would have fixed it with the Walky or earlier. I know those two cars were HSV's greatest effort ever and that's not a typical HSV but still

I'm pretty sure all 5 litres from VN onward got double row chains. Plenty of reports out there of people pulling down stock 5L's and finding double row chains, including me!

[adam69]

My 91 VQ has double row which was fitted recently and the old ones were double too.

[Boonz]

mine was double row out of a 1990 model, replaced it with a rollmaster double row set... about to replace it again with the crow cams adjustable double row unit

[savage1987]

i've heard timing gears can damage bearings through harmonics

I've heard that too, I have a feeling I read it in a thread of yours...

HSV double row chain????? When did the HSV's come out with a double row chain?? When you say timing gears, do you mean straight cut timing gears or just freshly replaced normal timing gears??

Straight cut. The chattery, whiny kind. I got the HSV info from this website: Browser Warning - not sure what that browser warning is all about but the site works fine...
"What kind of mechanical changes came with the injected 5.0-litre V8s?
.....as mentioned, HSVs get a double row timing chain......"

I'm pretty sure all 5 litres from VN onward got double row chains. Plenty of reports out there of people pulling down stock 5L's and finding double row chains, including me!

Maybe HSV enhanced motors?? Just a thought....

mine was double row out of a 1990 model, replaced it with a rollmaster double row set... about to replace it again with the crow cams adjustable double row unit

Why? were the other ones crap? Did they stretch?

[Boonz]

nah cos i wanna advance the cam timing accurately and easily lol

[Reaper]

Pretty sure the Group A runs a double row chain, because they used to break at Bathurst in the old Group A days and I'm sure they would have fixed it with the Walky or earlier. I know those two cars were HSV's greatest effort ever and that's not a typical HSV but still

True. Ever since Brock (and many others) died at Bathurst in 1985 (?) thru timing chain failure GM homologated double row chains on all the GPA cars. I'd be suprised if HSV didn't run them in all their engines.

Reaper

[pandaman]

True. Ever since Brock (and many others) died at Bathurst in 1985 (?) thru timing chain failure GM homologated double row chains on all the GPA cars. I'd be suprised if HSV didn't run them in all their engines.

Reaper

And I would honestly be surprised if anyone could show me an EFI 5L with a single row chain as standard. There's a fair few threads about it over on SC, the general consensus is that they were double row from VN onwards.

[Emackulation]

That website you posted was a really good read, got any more

[Dan355]

Timing gears will always keep the cam timing true hence no chains to stretch or break. Most drives arnt adjustable without spending a fortune therefore cant easly adjust cam timing. They will outlast any chain setup. The only down side really is the noise and the risk of defects which is why i removed my gear drive and bought timing chain setup.

[savage1987]

That website you posted was a really good read, got any more

No I haven't mate, which is a shame because I found it fascinating! It does have a lot of good info. I found it by accident through some google search or other..

Timing gears will always keep the cam timing true hence no chains to stretch or break. Most drives arnt adjustable without spending a fortune therefore cant easly adjust cam timing. They will outlast any chain setup. The only down side really is the noise and the risk of defects which is why i removed my gear drive and bought timing chain setup.

This is the first time I've heard anything good about timing gears. Most people have been telling me they'll wear out before a chain would, they put a lot of metal in the oil, etc etc...

btw Reaper, no hard feelings from my dump pipes rant

[Nos_VQ]

Never had a problem with timing gears. Have heard bad reports about them but never experienced anything bad myself. In early days you had to modify the oiler so it redirected the flow of oil onto the gear drive, and failure to do that would cause damage as you would expect. Other reason for failure was cheap inferior gear drives. Peter jackson gear drives are the only ones I have used in any of my motors.

[Reaper]

No I haven't mate, which is a shame because I found it fascinating! It does have a lot of good info. I found it by accident through some google search or other..

This is the first time I've heard anything good about timing gears. Most people have been telling me they'll wear out before a chain would, they put a lot of metal in the oil, etc etc...

btw Reaper, no hard feelings from my dump pipes rant

No worries - I had forgotten about it to be honest. (I am happy to say my piece and then move on).

I seem to remember replacing fiberous gears on old 202's but can't remember if it was for the camshaft or distributor. All the old red 6's had them and they ran fine right up to the time they disintegrated into the sump. They used the fiberous stuff to cut down on noise and the aluminium ones we replaced them with were quite loud in comparrison.

I really can't see a problem using a double row timing chain for most applications. A chain would have to do a *lot* of km before any stretch would make a noticable difference to most engines. It would fall into the catagory of periodic maintenance for race engines. When you replace the camshaft, do the timing chain as you would the lifters.

Reaper

[Dan355]

Never had a problem with timing gears. Have heard bad reports about them but never experienced anything bad myself. In early days you had to modify the oiler so it redirected the flow of oil onto the gear drive, and failure to do that would cause damage as you would expect. Other reason for failure was cheap inferior gear drives. Peter jackson gear drives are the only ones I have used in any of my motors.

Thats exactly why they have a bad rep. I was running a PJ to.

[savage1987]

I'll have to find out what brand mine is/are/whatever... they were on the car before I got my hands on it

That redirecting the oil flow thing, do I need to worry about that with the 5L? I guarantee it hasn't been done, the guy installed them himself.

Cheers for the info
Sam

[RVN 355]

I use Double Row From RollMaster with Kilkenny Casting Timing Cover,was thinking gilmer but decided againt's it

[immortality]

i've also heard that timing gears aren't compatible with knock sensors as the PCM will think it's knocking/pinging etc not a problem unless you have an HSV or have fitted a knock sensor.

strangly enough, my VH 308 has double row timing chain on it and it looks factory to me although i have replaced it with a new one many years ago

[savage1987]

I use Double Row From RollMaster with Kilkenny Casting Timing Cover,was thinking gilmer but decided againt's it

Why'd you decide against the gilmer belt?? I'd love to go down that road when I get rid of my gears... Sound even more like it's supercharged!

i've also heard that timing gears aren't compatible with knock sensors as the PCM will think it's knocking/pinging etc not a problem unless you have an HSV or have fitted a knock sensor.

I have no idea whether I have a knock sensor or not...someone in another thread said they're on all 5L motors from VR onwards... I'm not sure who to believe.

[Dan355]

I use Double Row From RollMaster with Kilkenny Casting Timing Cover,was thinking gilmer but decided againt's it

I think your on the wrong page? Ive never seen a Gilmer belt used for cam drive well not on any holden motors anyway. I think your talking about Gilmer belt for alternator, A/C ect?

[AirStrike]

Why'd you decide against the gilmer belt?? I'd love to go down that road when I get rid of my gears... Sound even more like it's supercharged!

I have no idea whether I have a knock sensor or not...someone in another thread said they're on all 5L motors from VR onwards... I'm not sure who to believe.

The only 5.0lt's to run knock sensors are the VN-VS HSV's and the VT roller blocks.

[savage1987]

Thanks AirStrike, that's helpful info. I'm not sure either how RVN 355 related a gilmer belt to a timing chain... Still he's got an awesome car so we can let him off right? My comment still stands though I'd look into a gilmer if/when I get rid of these gears. Honestly, is there anyone who doesn't like the way they sound?? (Rhetorical question not meaning to go off track lol)

[immortality]

I think your on the wrong page? Ive never seen a Gilmer belt used for cam drive well not on any holden motors anyway. I think your talking about Gilmer belt for alternator, A/C ect?

i've only ever seen a belt drive cam setup for chevy