VR V8 EFI in Opel Monza
I live in Holland where i own 2 Opel Monza,s in one of them i wanne put a Holden V8 instead of the current straight 6.
I am coming to Australia in januari for a Holiday and bought me a VR Commodore V8 EFI with automatic gearbox on ebay that is parkt at a mate of mine Melbourne,after my trip i wanne send the engine and transmission home and put in my Monza but i have problems:
The VR has the 4L60E box and that works electronic,how can use my speedo cable again?
What need to changed to the CPU that it run other cars? (read something about anti theft something)
How hard is the wiring from a VR with auto box in a VB Commodore coupe.
My car already is a injection,so tank and pump and lines are there,radiator wil be a VK V8tacho will be one from a VB-VH V8,that aint going to be problems,only that stupid 4l60E gearbox is my biggest problems,i thought all V8 EFI commodores had a TH700....
Gse, you can do it, you will need the loom for the engine and ecu. I'm not sure how you go about the speedo but it is possible. I will fix the memcal for you to disable the anti theft. I can do this from anywhere in the world so don't worry about that part. You just get it in the car and wired up. Another option is just buy a T700 or even a 3 speed T350 and run the VN/VP loom and ECU
Also what does the K frame look like in the Monza? I think you might need a K frame from an Australian car? to make the V8 fit?
P.S this is a really cool project you are doing
Haha thanks it aint cheap i mean getting a ticket for the land down under and getting a V8 Holden just for the engine and later find out that you have the "wrong version of the V8 setup"
But i bought the car cheap on ebay and its with a mate of mine now.
After i did my trip trough Aus the engine will be pulled out and send home on a pallet by seapost to put in my daily Monza A1.
I have a series 2 Monza but that one has ABS and aircon trip computer and i dont wanne change all that,and it has a digital dashbord that can be changed to a 8 cyl tacho as far i know.
But anyway it will end up in this:
Good points are:
The Commodore VB-VK is a 90% copie of my Monza it has the same trannie tunnel and a TH700/4l60E will fit in 100%,if the engine bay is complete empty its a right hand steered Commodore VB-VC-VH-VK under the bonnet.
I have a fitting tailschaft here,from a later Monza 4 speed aisin wagner automatic gearbox that has the same lenght as the TH700/4L60E box and our Trimatic and 5 speed Getrag and 4 speed automatic have the same yoke as the TH350 and TH700/4L60E so it shut fit.
(all Opel yokes of those days are the same as the the trimatic ones)
And a Monza has the same platform as the Commodore VB-VH so that tailschaft shut fit also,if the splines and connections are the same.
My Monza is a standard EFI one so lines and pump are tank are there.
VB-VK radiator would fit 1:1 as my current mounts are one the other side than the Aus ones:
I found out that a VR V8 K frame is the same than a VB-VP one but that the rest is diffent so it shut bolt right into my chassie 1:1 if use the rest of the suspension from the Monza.
Another big problem is the steering system,but i am close to have that solved:
We have a recerculating ball system and the Aus cars have a rack system,i got me a a steering rack from a 1998 E class mercedes that i changed now that it shut fit the VR K-frame if i weld some brackets on the K-frame and i than have the same track as a Monza and enough clearance for the exhaust atleast that what i hope,ow yeah we have the steering wheel on the other side,that why nothing from Holden fits.
My current 3 liter straight six has 2 exhaust pipes from the start till the end (all of them) so changing the exhaust wont be a big issu,they are 2x45mm.
Every Monza has 4 brake disks and i bought 330mm front brakes in Aus and they are on the car right now with a 1" master cylinder and a brake booster from a MV6 Omega (Aus based VX commodore),so brakes doenst need to get changed.
But my big problem is going to be wiring i cant find any real good information of how and what to wire????
My plan is:
Get the engine and trannie out and send it home with the rest that i need and a extra VN V8 loom + cpu and swap the 4L60E trannie here for a TH700,or buy me one and sell that 4L60E trannie,there are plenty of US barrels here that have a TH700 so that wont be the problem.
But is somebody could explain me how to wire a VN loom into a VB-VK would be great.
I did a lot research today and came up with this:
4L60E is not the right trannie for me:cant get the speedo working for a fair price and i dont like wires,a tv cable is much more simpler and a TH700 after 82 or 84 is just as strong as a 4l60E.
VR loom/cpu has that anti theft thing in it,and the VN cpu not and the VR loom has that automatic box shift cpu in it that i dont want so thats why i wanne get me a VN V8 loom if a VN loom fits on a VR engine without any problems....
captain halfajob
de goedemorgen en hoe is u? (that was copied from babel fish)
anywas, i hope you do well with this job. keep up in touch bro
Tells it like it is.
There are a couple of Monza's in Australia who have done this conversion. I'd ask at some of the HDT forums to see if one of the guys will help you out regarding how well/bad the Holden "K" frame and suspension goes into the Monza. VB - VP are all definitely the same as far as the front ends go. VR is different. Some parts are the same but I don't know where the line is drawn.
Check out www.brockcommodores.com and www.bertiestreet.com.
Reaper
de goedemorgen en hoe is u?
Mean:The goodmorning how is you.............The words are not in the right way it shut be:
Goedemorgen hoe is het...
Reaper:
I can take a Monza k-frame and weld to suit the V8 if its really nessacery but i read somehere that the VR k frame itself is the same as the previous Commodores but that the lower controle arms and the rest is diffent because a VR has a weither track.
If that is true than i can use my Monza control arms and z bar and all shut fit the VR k frame.
The only thing i am a bit afraid of the wiring,i did 2 C30SE engine converions (the 3.0 24V 150KW engines from the later Omega/Senator B=Your VN-VS chassie) and they have a Motronic system with heaps of unnessacery wires,but you can find plenty of information about that:
opel, senator, monza, omega
(i speak and German too as i live 15kays of the border and have plenty of german tv channels and now lots of Germans)
Buy i find hardly any information about the V8 loom witch one is the best/easyst to wire up:
VN-VP-VR-VS-VT???????
What need to be taken from the donor car??
I am going to see the guy that owns the Brock Monza,he is also doing a V8 EFI converion into his other Monza that he imported from the UK,hopefully he knows abit more over how to wire a 304.
What crossmember for the transmission and all that doesnt really matter i can weld something together that fit,i have a few crosmembers here from wreckt cars..
I never drove a V8 and i hope that wenn i floor the pedal that i say yeah thats what need...
My brother owns this:
It has a strock 24V engine and a 5 speed Getrag gearbox ,and it does 0-100 in 7,8 sec and has a topspeed of 235kays (tested in Germany with GPS on a highway whit no speed limit)
That engine has 204hp/150KW and 270NM of torque somewhere around 4000/4500rpm.
It even might have a bit more power because the cats are gone,but wont be much.
Tells it like it is.
All of the VN - VS V8 looms are pretty much as easy as each other to wire up. Just get a GM Holden engine manual that gives you the pinouts and voltages attached to the ecu for dash inputs/outputs etc.
Reaper
346 cu/in
congrats mate.
this seems like an awesome project and im glad youve backed it up with pics.
definitely wouldnt pick one of them cars having a v8 in it. im pretty sure youll be happy with the power and noise from a 304. i know im pretty happy with mine.
and a vn loom would be best. as all 304's wire the same and are the same engine just use different transmissions and different/better theft systems etc.
cant wait to see this all finished. hope youve got a set of holden engine covers to go on it too
This is the Commodore/engine i got:
Its a 94 VR V8 with automatic trannie,runs on LPG. (cheap do drive in Aus and i drive my daily Monza on LPG here to so i have the right LPG system too that fits that engine.
Got it real cheap of ebay and is has 6 month rego,so i am quit happy with the car,cheap to run,aircon works,and a V8 for my holiday..
My mate took a look at the car before i bought it and it runs fine:
blows no smoke,runs good on both fuels and the trannie shifts okay,there are no oil leaks or whatsoever,so i hope it serves me well.
But another question:
The VR and VS have a 4l60E transmission and that transmission needs a cpu that is needed for the gearbox to shift and use the lockup and the rest that the transmission does,
Can the VR engine loom that is ment for a 4l60E be used on a TH700???
There is a VN V8 loom now on ebay,would that be a better choise?
The TH700 aint a problem a guy that i know well has a few,and if he tested them and he has a spare for himself than i could have one.
346 cu/in
mate you can use a vr loom and computer. just get greenfoam the first guy to reply to your thread to reprogram your memcal ( part in your computer) so that it turns off all the stuff about the 4l60e as you will be using a kickdown cable for your older style box.
and also whats your plans for the shell when you take the motor and gearbox out as it looks quite tidy ?
Yeah i am going to hook up with Greenfoam,he shut change the cpu that it runs in any car and i need a reprogrammed chip,for mroe power.
I want a daily engine that last long,and has decent power.
Finding Holden parts here sucks,if something like a relay of waterpump or gasket break down it would of cost atleast 1,5 week before the part is here,and that why i wanne keep it pretty much stock,so that it last the longest.
What plans for the shell for the shell i have:none so far my mate would take of what he might need for his VK and the rest will end up at the wreckers i gues...
That VR has not much options only:airbags and ABS.
It has a normal interiour and live axel.
The most elegant and easiest conversion as far as getting the speedo to work easily is going to be use a VN loom, VN ecu and a T700 gearbox on your VR motor (all the VN-VS motors are the same). I think you should aim for that
Haha ship the complete car is
1 exensive on shipping cost.
2 cost heap heaps of paperwork and probaly a fortune to get it on the roads,because the vehicle was never sold in Holland and it need a complete test of safety and bla bla bla and i need diffent headlights,and the worst of all i need to start paying tax and a lot because it not older than 25 jears and because it runs on LPG.(tax system here sucks,exept cars older than 25 dont pay 0.0 tax)
3 a complete car has more parts that can break down,and VR parts you dont find here.
But i will get a VN loom and computer and will drop by so you can change that chip,if you dont mind.
I'm not convinced that wiring a 4L60E (VR Commodore) would be very much harder than the TH700 (VN-VP Commodore). Connection into the Monza wiring won't be any different and the trans harness is integral with the ECM/PCM harness (same sensors used). One of the local (Australian) companies eg. Castlemaine Rod Shop - but there are others - that provide kits for engine swapping may be able to help with a cable drive speedo output/adaptor for the 4L60E that maintains the ECM/PCM speed signal.
Connecting the speedometer may be easier with the TH700 - which doesn't use a speedometer drive cable either in Australian cars. (VN-VP have a Hall effect speed sensor on the trans. and the speed sensor output signal is run through the speedometer instrument. The speedometer reduces the frequency of the signal (/10) which then goes to the ECM.) Speedometer cable output from TH700 is available but not from cars sold in Australia => USA. And you lose the signal for the ECM with the cable drive only. The gears are colour coded for different speedometer drive ratios.
One vehicle that did use the VN/VP ECM, 304 V8 and cable drive speedometer was the '88 VL Walkinshaw Group A Commodore. They have a BW T5 with a cable drive speedometer and the ECM speed sensor signal derived from an optical pick up on the back of the speedometer instrument, driven by the cable. Local versions of the Opel Ascona (J-car, Camira in Australia), '86-'88 used a similar set up (with the same ECM). It's possible that the Camira sensor might be adapted to the Monza instrument to give the speed signal to the ECM.
As long as i have this:
I can screw this one on the speedo cable drive:
And screw my speedo cable on that.
I used 2 of those VSS sensors above each other,on my other Monza,one for the digital dashbord that has 6 impulses and the other has 8 impulses for the automatic gearbox to shift at the right moments,works perfect.(gearbox is from a later model car,so i had to be creative..
My brothers cars in the pics a few posts above has a 24V valve 3lite with a manual 5 speed gearbox and the computer that controls the spark and injection needs that signal too,to adjust the spark time at certain rpms for more power,but it not really relevant for the power output,some people tested it on the dyno with and without the vss connected for the cars engine mangements and it made a diffence of max 4KW.
I can get those sensors in:6 8 10 16 pulses.
What more than the speedo needes a impulse signal on a VN-VP??
The box is mechanical...
The engine management system???
Lockup??
Yeah the lock up and it uses speed to go into and out of idle mode (but this also works from Throttle position), as far as my memory tells me the VN is 10 pulse too
Greenfoam can you also change the memcal from the VN cpu that it brings more power?
I am not going to try to get the VR loom working..
I run it in the car in Aus,and that it,no more for the VR loom.
I really dont like electronic in the cars,exept the simple injection systems i have i my cars,those are simplere fixt than a carby..
I,ll get me a TH700 with a speedo cable setup here in Holland and a 10 impuls vss sensor and run the show with a VN loom.
How much extra KW and torque do those memcals bring on a 100% stock engine:
no extractors no other cam no bigger valves just 100% stock????
Last edited by Gse; 30-12-2009 at 09:37 AM.
About 20 rwhp, but you can get similar gains by advancing the timing (alot). The only problem then is that you get a little bit too much timing in some areas. But you'll need to have the program on the memcal changed to a VN style one anyway. I wont charge you for it since you are a visitor/guestOriginally Posted by Gse
Thanks i,ll drop by as soon its on my schedual:
I am in Aus for 5 weeks and i will arrive and leave in Melb,my plans are to go NSW to see the owner of the Brock Monza and have a look at his other Monza where he is putting a V8 EFI engine in from a VN,hopefully he is doing the wiring than,bacuse he just got back from the body shop where they weld a complete rust free front on the car (everything furter than the windscreen was off the car and replaced by Commodore VB parts) and he is builing the car up again and after that a complete repaint is on the program.
Than head to Shepparton to see some farmers that i met in previous holidays (3 jears back) and hope they are still there because of drought and i wanne stay there for a few days.
And i wanne cross the Nullarbor to drive a bit around in WA,than head back to Vic to see you and than pull the engine out of the VR.
I really have no idea how the V8 EFI electronic department works,how many versions of computers are ther:
VN-VP manual and auto gearbox
VR-VS manual and auto gearbox
Makes it 4 diffent kinds a looms and computers right?
At one time i think:getting rid of the 4L60E box and get a TH700 and 5 minutes later i think:
SHIFTWORKS - 4L60E Tail Housing Kits
The conversion kit cost me 400$ US=280€ex shipping and tax wichs is not a funny extra cost but i can handle it.
So i might stay with the 4L60E,because if the trannie served me right in Aus,i know atleast what i got and the 4L60E boxes suppose to be stronger than the TH700 ones.
if i need to exchange the 4L60 here to a TH700 i would lose money on it and i never know what i get back unless i buy back a rebuild trannie witch would cost more than a complete V8 Holden EFI shipped in would cost.
But Greenfoam i,ll make contact as soon as i am in Aus,i hope you power the Holden VR V8EFI a bit up.
If you look at the pistons you see that the have have these low compression bowls in them witch aint good for performance...
Those pistons shut get out as soon possible but i am not a millionair,and a changed memcal doesnt cost the world,so thats the first thing to happen.
Please send you adres and phone number to my email adress witch is:
Niessen_ben@hotmail.com
I guess you are in Australia by now
Haha Jason you drove it yourself,the engine is out now,well technical its still in but we didnt have a engine crane,the gearbox is already out and the engine wil get out next weekend.
I thought ihad a problem with the startermotor moving to the otherside but its not a major problem i just drill 2 news holes and tap treath in that and use a chev or whatever V8 startermotor,now my biggest problem is:
What do i need of the wiring,the engine loom is in one piece with the cars loom and not a stand alone loom,like i am used too and thought that it would be.
I cut everything off after the fuse and relais box,and in the interiour there is a connector a bit above the engine computer in the interiour,do need that part of the loom to that is connected with the engine loom???
Can anybody please tell me what i need of the VR loom to get the engine running in another car??
Or does anybody have a wiring schedual or a manual how to wire it up,there must be 1000 of people that put a 304 EFI in a older car than a VN,so there must be some people that know what to do and what to need.
I hope anybody can help me with the wiring.....
(Jason after the memcal is reprogrammed its 100% better than before and it was a bit better on fuel but the extra power is deffinalty worth it )
You need all the engine bay loom untill where it connects to the ecu and whatever goes to the gearbox. The extra wires going into the ecu that aren't part of the engine or gearbox loom should be just the ones you need to wire into your car so you should be able to chop those off. Well you might as well take that diagnostic plug from under the dash
wiring fuel injection - GMH-Torana
I believe this wil solve my wiring problem,i took everything i needed to get it running again in Europe.
I hope i can help others with this link that face the same wiring problems as i am going to do.
Buying a loom is the Castlemain rod shop for $$$ is always another option if i cant get it running.
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