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Reply With Quotewhew!!.some of that looks rather familiar kim.you have been busy,havent you!
VK Commodore Engine Info
Black/Blue Motor Differences – General:
As far as the carbie motors go the main difference is the black head has better porting and different underhead shaped valves. Later VH blue motors and black carby motors also had a air pump which blows air into the exhaust system to afterburn the fuel left in the exhaust after combustion..
The blue motor has marginally better pistons. Also it has electronic dizzy which is reportedly more reliable than the VK carbed engine's Electronic Spark Timing setup..
The injected black motor has a higher lift cam than the carb engines, and also does not have the air pump system and has the electronic dizzy. Also the cam timing is retarded about 5 degrees to improve pollution but at the cost of some lower rpm torque. (Note that the carb engines' cams were also retarded for the same reasons (5.5 degrees on the VH engine, IIRC.
The piston design on both motors was changed from the red motor to get lighter pistons and on the blue motor are not too bad but on the black motor they crack up all the time. If rebuilding don't use GMH pistons get decent aftermarket ones.
Blue Dizzy on a Black Motor
1) Make sure that you also get the blue HEI dizzy as you will need to use that, due to the vk running an EST computer for the timing (doesnt have vacuum advance).
2) Replace the thermostat housing of the VK (with the temperature electronic sensor) with the VH housing (with the thermal vacuum switch), not necessary but recommended. The TVS supplies manifold vacuum to the vacuum advance canister when the engine overheats at idle, to help cool the engine down. In normal conditions, the TVS supplies ported vacuum to the dizzy's vac advance canister.
3) For wiring the power for the dizzy, The EST system switches the 12V- side of the coil, and the 12V+ side of the coil is connected to ignition - the pink power wire is on the same circuit as the choke, and idle shutoff solenoid. The VH HEI module will have a green wire to switch the negative side of the coil.
All you do is pull out the EST dizzy, and drop in a blue HEI dizzy. The pink wire stays connected to the + side of the coil, and the 2 wires from the HEI one hook onto the coil too. It's as easy as that. There is a brown wire in the VK that hooks onto the coil neg terminal for the tacho.
The VK and the HEI use the same coil, leads, cap and rotor.
VK Substitute Carburetter (Black and Blue Motor)
The most common cause of engine troubles with the 202 motors was the Varajet carbi. Whilst a reasonable proposition once new, now most examples are worn, hard to tune, and generally work to well below their potential. A cheap substitue for the varajet is a Weber (34ADM) off of the XE/F falcons. They cost around $40 dollars (plus adaption plate) and are easily fitted to these motors with only the accelerator cable mount needing to be modified. They not only provide greater horse power but also increase your fuel effeciency. I would like to see evidence of this on paper - if someone does the mod with before and after dynos, that would be good. (N/B: With the black motor in the VK the secondary throttle sensor must be disconected and the computer (EST) must be reset.
Questions, and some modified answers...
Q. Will the VK trimatic/flexplate hook up to the blue without alteration?
A. Blue and black crankshafts have the same bolt hole spacings and sizes, so either flywheel/flexplate will bolt to either.
Q. Will the black motor inlet/exhaust manifolds hook up to the blue?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the carby on the black motor (I haven't picked the car up yet) and is it a two barrel?
A. The Carby on the Black/Blue motor is a 2-barrel Rochester Varajet-II
Q. Can I run a 350 holley in it's place?
A. A GOOD CONDITION 350 holley CAN run really well on the stock 202, and can sometimes give better economy than what it's replacing (with a rejetting if it came off a different sized engine.). If you run a Holley you need to know that there is a micro switch on the Varijet that alters your ignition timing once you reach a certain rev range. One way to get around this is to rip the EST out and install that blue motor dizzy.
The blue motor has basically the same carbie though {no micro switch, just remember that if you use it}.
Q. Is there anything else I should do? (Looks like a question for hotting up a VK 6 cyl, so this was the opinion of the author, and definitely not mine...)
A. Pacemaker Extractors, 2.5 inch Mandrel Bent Lukey System, 35/75 or similar cam, re-graphed dizzy with new points, straight cut timing gears if you like noise or just a decent angle cut alloy gear set.
Hot 202 if you build them to last. ACL HQ race pistons, 35/72 solid cam and lifters, roller rockers, balanced/blueprinted bottom end, ARP rod bolts-a must, JP high volume oil pump, lightened flywheel, Stage 3 Yella Terra 12 port with an extra 30 thou shaved off it,20 thou off block deck, blue motor electronic ignition,4 barrel manifold and 600 Holley four barrel, let me know if you want any more info.
Q. The question here is, for this sort of motor will I need any porting do you think?
A. Port work-never hurts, depends on your budget, but with a cam profile of 25/65 don’t go too silly, just a bit of a cleanup would probably do.
Q. Will the 12 port head flow well enough with the standard sized valves?
A. Standard valves would be ok. All depends on your budget again.
Q. Is the lift within range of a standard hydraulic lifter/standard rocker combo for this motor?
A. Standard rocker gear would be fine, the only reason I had roller rockers was because with solid cams you need to be able to adjust valve clearances, bolt down and leave them. 202 gear is no good for solids, fine for hydraulicswith up to 0.450" valve lift on either the intake or exhaust.
Q. Is there any advantage in using a black head on a blue motor?
A. Yes, the black head flows more CFM from the above modifications.
Last edited by Kim; 11-08-2004 at 07:35 AM. Reason: Fixing up some details
whew!!.some of that looks rather familiar kim.you have been busy,havent you!
Banned
Topic pinned Kim, good work putting it all together. If you have the time add to it as you find out new info or have some new ideas. This really would be a great guide for others wishing to modify their 202's.
Cheers
Jake
very good idea i think i copyed it all and put it in notepad!!!!!!!! 3;!!!!!!
cheers
scott
I don't stay with my my wife for love, spite really, i won't leave her cause that'll make her happy!!
I'll have another look over it when I have done the work on my VK. I am taking photos and keeping dome notes. Gld you like it.
The VK head didn't get larger valves. They got valves with a better underhead shape. That and: short turns got smoothed, and valve shrouding in the chamber was slightly lessened. That's all...
Cheers,
Dave
Hi all,
Well, I am not as good as my word. I could not get the photos of the job for two reasons.
1. Work would not lend me the camera. The stock guy was on Holidays for a week and we couldn't get into his room! Arrrg.
2. When I went to put the blue dizzy in and was looking over the job I found that the EST module was already gone from the car....I looked at the dizzy in the car and it lokked very very much like the dizzy I had in my hand to put in..... someone got there before me. LOL
Sorry about that. Anyway, the setup I have works just fine. I can take photos of it soon so you can see the dizzy and coil wiring but that's about all. Note also, when I put the VK dash in which had a tacho it just worked. I did not have to run any wires or do anything at all!
Kim
QUOTE (Kim @ Feb 13 2004, 03:44 PM) Here is some nfo I have gathered. If you'd like to read through it and make any comments about things I might have wrong then that would be great.
Thanks for all your help so far!!!
Kim
VK Commodore Engine Info
Black/Blue Motor Differences – General:
As far as the carbie motors go the main difference is the black head has better porting and larger valves. It also has a air pump which blows air into the exhaust system or something to burn up pollutants.
The blue motor has marginally better pistons. Also it has electronic dizzy which is far superior to the crappy EST one on the black motor that f@@@ upall the time.
The injected black motor has a stronger cam, bit like the XU1 I think, also does not have the air pump system and has the electronic dizzy. Also the cam timing is retarded about 5 degrees to improve pollution but sucks power.
The piston design on both motors was changed from the red motor to get lighter pistons and on the blue motor are not too bad but on the black motor they crack up all the time (so do blue ones) If rebuilding don't use GMH pistons get decent aftermarket ones.
Blue Dizzy on a Black Motor
1) run a new seperate power wire to the dizzy.thats what i did when putting a blue motor dizzy in a black motor.
2) Make sure that you also get the blue HEI dizzy with the motor as you will need to use that, due to the vk running a computer for the timing (doesnt have vacuum advance). Double check this as i cant remember exactly.
3) That might mean that the carby should be changed to get proper vacuum ??
4) It's only points cars that reduce the voltage supplied to the coil - the VK doesn't.
The EST system switches the 12V- side of the coil, and the 12V+ side of the coil is connected to ignition anyway - the pink wire is on the same circuit as the choke & idle shutoff solenoid.
All you do is pull out the EST dizzy, and drop in a blue HEI dizzy. The pink wire stays connected to the + side of the coil, and the 2 wires from the HEI one hook onto the coil too. It's as easy as that. There is a brown wire in the VK that hooks onto the coil neg terminal for the tacho.
The VK & the HEI use the same coil, leads, cap & rotor.
VK Substitute Carburetter (Black and Blue Motor)
The most common cause of engine troubles with the 202 motors was the Varajet carbi. It made the engines work to well bellow their potential. A cheap substitue for the varajet is a small Weber (32-36) off of the XE falcons. They cost around $40 dollars (plus adaption plate) and are easily fitted to these motors with only the accelerator cable mount needing to be modified. They not only provide greater horse power but also increase your fuel effeciency. (N/B: With the black motor in the VK the secondary throttle sensor must be disconected and the computer (EST) must be reset.
From: Kris Humphrys
Questions
Q. Will the VK trimatic/flexplate hook up to the blue without alteration?
A. Black and blue are basically exactly the same
Q. Will the black motor inlet/exhaust manifolds hook up to the blue?
A. Yes. That's a good question again don't quote me but the blue and black motor both have the 12 port head so I don't see why not. I've always thought the Blue and Black 202 bottom ends where the same, both with the star fire rods and minor differences over the old red motor.
The black and blue are basically exactly the same engines. Black has the crap EST ignition system, if the blue motor comes with its electronic ignition, that is a good alternative to the EST. The black motors other only real difference to the blue is that it has a lot more pollution gear, air pump etc. The only difference in the heads is that the black has a lot of pollution crap running into it above the manifolds.
Basically it is just a matter of dropping the engine in and bolting everything up to it.
Q. What is the carby on the black motor (I haven't picked the car up yet) and is it a two barrel?
A. The Carby on the Black/Blue motor is a 2-barrel Varijet Rochester and a disgusting oily POS in my humble opinion.
Q. Can I run a 350 holley in it's place?
A. The Holley will run really well on the stock 202,should actually be cheaper to run than what’s on it. If you run a Holley you need to know that there is a micro switch on the Varijet that advances up your ignition timing once you reach a certain rev range. The best way to get around this is to rip the EST out and install that blue motor dizzy.
The blue motor has basically the same carbie though {no micro switch, just remember that if you use it}.
A cheap and great mod for a 202 is a 2 Barrel Weber from an XF. Both carbies require an adapter plate or after market manifold.
Q. Is there anything else I should do?
A. Pacemaker Extractors, 2.5" Mandrel Bent Lukey System, 35/75 or similar cam, re-graphed dizzy with new points, straight cut timing gears if you like noise or just a decent angle cut alloy gear set.
Hot 202 if you build them to last. ACL Duralite HQ race pistons, 35/72 solid cam and lifters, roller rockers, balanced/blueprinted bottom end, ARP rod bolts-a must, JP high volume oil pump, lightened flywheel, Stage 3 Yella Terra 12 port with an extra 30 thou shaved off it,20 thou off block deck, blue motor electronic ignition,4 barrel manifold and 600 Holley four barrel, let me know if you want any more info.
Q. The question here is, for this sort of motor will I need any porting do you think?
A. Port work-never hurts, depends on your budget, but with a cam profile of 25/65 don’t go too silly, just a bit of a cleanup would probably do.
Q. Will the 12 port head flow well enough with the standard sized valves?
A. Standard valves would be ok. All depends on your budget again.
Q. Is the lift within range of a standard hydraulic lifter/standard rocker combo for this motor?
A. Standard rocker gear would be fine, the only reason I had roller rockers was because with solid cams you need to be able to adjust valve clearances, bolt down and leave them. 202 gear is no good for solids, fine for hydraulics.
Q. Is there any advantage in using a black head on a blue motor?
A. No advantage, just extra holes to plug up {pollution ports}. I used a brand new blue head on my black motor.
blue and black motors r the f@@@ing same
Hi jays_sik_vk,
The heads were different in that there was extra pollution control added to the black motor head. Also, the efi Black motor head had different porting done and different shaped valves. Really, the differences are only minor but enough so that the head gaskets are incompatible.
Try sitting a blue motor and a black motor side by side and comparing them.
Kim
Ok, so can you edit your original posts with the corrections as below?
VK Commodore Engine Info
Black/Blue Motor Differences – General:
As far as the carbie motors go the main difference is the black head has better porting and different underhead shaped valves. Later VH blue motors and black carby motors also had a air pump which blows air into the exhaust system to afterburn the fuel left in the exhaust after combustion..
The blue motor has marginally better pistons. Also it has electronic dizzy which is reportedly more reliable than the VK carbed engine's Electronic Spark Timing setup..
The injected black motor has a higher lift cam than the carb engines, and also does not have the air pump system and has the electronic dizzy. Also the cam timing is retarded about 5 degrees to improve pollution but at the cost of some lower rpm torque. (Note that the carb engines' cams were also retarded for the same reasons (5.5 degrees on the VH engine, IIRC.
The piston design on both motors was changed from the red motor to get lighter pistons and on the blue motor are not too bad but on the black motor they crack up all the time (so do blue ones) If rebuilding don't use GMH pistons get decent aftermarket ones.
Blue Dizzy on a Black Motor
1) Make sure that you also get the blue HEI dizzy as you will need to use that, due to the vk running a computer for the timing (doesnt have vacuum advance).
2) Replace the thermostat housing of the VK (with the temperature electronic sensor) with the VH housing (with the thermal vacuum switch), not necessary but recommended. The TVS supplies manifold vacuum to the vacuum advance canister when the engine overheats at idle, to help cool the engine down. In normal conditions, the TVS supplies ported vacuum to the dizzy's vac advance canister.
3) For wiring the power for the dizzy, The EST system switches the 12V- side of the coil, and the 12V+ side of the coil is connected to ignition - the pink power wire is on the same circuit as the choke, and idle shutoff solenoid. The VH HEI module will have a green wire to switch the negative side of the coil.
All you do is pull out the EST dizzy, and drop in a blue HEI dizzy. The pink wire stays connected to the + side of the coil, and the 2 wires from the HEI one hook onto the coil too. It's as easy as that. There is a brown wire in the VK that hooks onto the coil neg terminal for the tacho.
The VK and the HEI use the same coil, leads, cap and rotor.
VK Substitute Carburetter (Black and Blue Motor)
The most common cause of engine troubles with the 202 motors was the Varajet carbi. Whilst a reasonable proposition once new, now most examples are worn, hard to tune, and generally work to well below their potential. A cheap substitue for the varajet is a small Weber (32-36) off of the XE falcons. They cost around $40 dollars (plus adaption plate) and are easily fitted to these motors with only the accelerator cable mount needing to be modified. They not only provide greater horse power but also increase your fuel effeciency. I would like to see evidence of this on paper - if someone does the mod with before and after dynos, that would be good. (N/B: With the black motor in the VK the secondary throttle sensor must be disconected and the computer (EST) must be reset.
Questions, and some modified answers...
Q. Will the VK trimatic/flexplate hook up to the blue without alteration?
A. Blue and black crankshafts have the same bolt hole spacings and sizes, so either flywheel/flexplate will bolt to either.
Q. Will the black motor inlet/exhaust manifolds hook up to the blue?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the carby on the black motor (I haven't picked the car up yet) and is it a two barrel?
A. The Carby on the Black/Blue motor is a 2-barrel Rochester Varajet-II
Q. Can I run a 350 holley in it's place?
A. A GOOD CONDITION 350 holley CAN run really well on the stock 202, and can sometimes give better economy than what it's replacing (with a rejetting if it came off a different sized engine.). If you run a Holley you need to know that there is a micro switch on the Varijet that alters your ignition timing once you reach a certain rev range. One way to get around this is to rip the EST out and install that blue motor dizzy.
The blue motor has basically the same carbie though {no micro switch, just remember that if you use it}.
Q. Is there anything else I should do? (Looks like a question for hotting up a VK 6 cyl, so this was the opinion of the author, and definitely not mine...)
A. Pacemaker Extractors, 2.5 inch Mandrel Bent Lukey System, 35/75 or similar cam, re-graphed dizzy with new points, straight cut timing gears if you like noise or just a decent angle cut alloy gear set.
Hot 202 if you build them to last. ACL HQ race pistons, 35/72 solid cam and lifters, roller rockers, balanced/blueprinted bottom end, ARP rod bolts-a must, JP high volume oil pump, lightened flywheel, Stage 3 Yella Terra 12 port with an extra 30 thou shaved off it,20 thou off block deck, blue motor electronic ignition,4 barrel manifold and 600 Holley four barrel, let me know if you want any more info.
Q. The question here is, for this sort of motor will I need any porting do you think?
A. Port work-never hurts, depends on your budget, but with a cam profile of 25/65 don’t go too silly, just a bit of a cleanup would probably do.
Q. Will the 12 port head flow well enough with the standard sized valves?
A. Standard valves would be ok. All depends on your budget again.
Q. Is the lift within range of a standard hydraulic lifter/standard rocker combo for this motor?
A. Standard rocker gear would be fine, the only reason I had roller rockers was because with solid cams you need to be able to adjust valve clearances, bolt down and leave them. 202 gear is no good for solids, fine for hydraulicswith up to 0.450" valve lift on either the intake or exhaust.
Q. Is there any advantage in using a black head on a blue motor?
A. Yes, the black head flows more CFM from the above modifications. See LINK: Yella Terra Head CFM flows for the differences between the blue and black heads.
How does that sound?
Cheers,
Dave
Hi Dave,
Updated it like you suggested
K
HEI dizzy wiring
I was about to log this as a new question and this was the first thread I saw. Almost answers my question.Originally Posted by 208_Fireball
I'm putting a HEI dizzy in my HJ Monaro. I don't know exactly where it came from, I thought it was a VH, but reading this thread it might be a VK.
Anyway, the dizzy has two wires coming from it - lt brown and dk green - where do the go? I know they both go to the coil, but which terminals. The above quote states that they both go to the -ve side. At least that's the way I'm reading it. That can't be right, can it?
My Commodore book shows that they go one to +ve and one to -ve, but it doesn't feel the need to tell you which way round those wires go.
Please help. :b:
Rod.
Hi Rod,
The light brown wire (maybe is just crusty pink?) should go to the positive side of the coil, and the green should go to the negative.
If in doubt, the gregory manual for the VC/VH shows the actual pins of the electronic module, you should be able to trace from there
Cheers,
Dave
The plastic cam gear is crap.
For all of you that are considering the dizzy swap, use a steel cam gear from the oil pump (another oil pump obviously) and piss that nylon one off. There is nothing worse than stripping out the teeth on a plastic gear, because once one tooth goes, the others follow straight away. You may notice that early sixes have a steel gear on the dizzy anyway; another cost cutting exercise by Holden I imagine.
Thanks for the clarification
Thanks for that. You could be right about the pink not brown. I was doing it from memory at work. But I'll give that a shot and see how it goes.Hi Rod,
The light brown wire (maybe is just crusty pink?) should go to the positive side of the coil, and the green should go to the negative.
If in doubt, the gregory manual for the VC/VH shows the actual pins of the electronic module, you should be able to trace from there
Cheers,
Dave
Rod.
HEI Dizzy wiring and problems.
Correct me if I'm wrong. The ballast resistor wire that is used in cars with points-type dizzies should be bypassed when using a HEI dizzy, right? What effect will it have if it is not?
The reason I ask this is because the HEI dizzy I just installed appears to be misfiring erratically. All plugs fire, but then they don't. It's not just a single plug missing consistantly, they all fire but the all appear to intermittently miss. I've resistance tested the leads and they're all well within spec. The coil lead is new.
If the dizzy module was knackered then it wouldn't fire at all, right?
Could it be the coil that's past it's use-by date?
This is a brand new engine (308) with a few bits of this and other bits of that. I know the carby needs looking at but I want to sort out the ignition issues first. Any help greatly appreciated. :b:
Rod.
Last edited by VPwagon; 02-11-2004 at 02:03 PM.
Holy sh*t.
The first message in this topic is huge.
I didn't read all of it and I understood about 0% of what I read but it seems pretty informative...
Nice work I guess man...
CHV006
202 mods
350 hollies while good, in stock trim need power valve, jet changes, adaptor plate cost and because of large cfm dont pull vacum advance to well and can lean out at full throttle causing burnt valves. To save bickies and once tuned leave alone go the 34/36 weber, re-drill the blue/black manifold tap holes to bolt carby direct to manifold, I did and never looked back. To get around vacum advance worries re-graph dizzy, but I hooked up the vacum advance to the red id'd port on the weber, set timing to 6 btdc and no pinging, no lag etc . Hook up the hose to cannister as required, wind close the dash pot, block off all other vacum ports, inparticular the one at base of mounting block. Get throttle cable as high as poss to prevent sudden throttle, all in all costs considered the weber even allowing for time works out a better option, I tried a 350 on my other blue 202, it lagged, hunted, backfired and opened a inch hole in fuel tank! If anyone is in Perth area of Belmont etc I am happy to show how neat and well my 1.9 Starfire runs with a non modified weber. I had the safety of not getting caught and got a smigy under 100 kph in second dut to gearing not power. jimrichards1964@bigpond.com Happy to show what I did. ps Keep all bits from falcon weber, bolts, air cleaner, everything.
I
In response to VPWAGON..
Leave the ballast resistor wire there and use it as the trigger wire for a relay...no messy rewiring from the ignition switch and after the relay is wired up a full 12 Volts to the coil and dizzy.
Rotor button hei & est dizzy
Bad news. Am in the process of changing dizzys on my VK & noticed that the rotors are NOT interchangeable. They will not physically fit plus the est rotor has a much wider contact area which i believe it for the computer to adjust the dwell angle regardless of the manual setting of the dizzy.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I may have got the wrong one to start with.
Vitt
well on the thread of blue dizzies in est black motors i have to agree now a question someone has given me a bosch dizzie u-tgfu 6gmh no 92004493this unit has vaccuum advance on it can i use it and where on the vk carby do i hook it up to?
similar cam, re-graphed dizzy with new points,
new points? were do you put them in a black or blue dizzy?
this thread had some excellent ideas for hotting up my black 202 vk.. Thanks..
Can I throw a bit of something into the mix that may force you guys to do some deeper research?? From my extensive experience with Blue motors, only the 2.85 ltr (173) motor got the Airpump. 202's never did, Blue only, don't know about Black. This unit not only made these already undersized engines also underpowered but did nothing for their fuel economy, hence made them burn more fuel again, so much for attempted pollution control!!
The SL/E Fanatic!
the black 202 did get the air pump, may mate took his off, also i have seen a few blue 202s with them too.
Cheers Damien"SL/ENUT" Smith, The SL/E Fanatic!
A lucky owner of 2 SL/E Commodores, a rare VB SL/E and a 2 tone VC SL/E. Just need a VH SL/E and have the set!
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