VK Calais won't start!!!

[racedirector]

Hi All

I inherited an 85 VK Calais from my Dad who has left the country. The ole girl is in pretty good nick but has issues with the fuel system/engine. Up to now it has been starting OK (strong battery) although the lower rev range is rubbish. When driving it stumbles badly down low, a boot full will rectify that and it drives OK from there. However, yesterday I started it and while I put on my seatbelt it stopped. It hasn't started since. It will try and fire but will not actually go.

Now being a Ford man I am at a loss as to where to start. To me it sounds fuel related but the tank is full. Could this be caused by fuel pump/fule filter problems? The strange thing is it just happened out of the blue with no warning. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
RD

EDit: This is the 6 cyl model with EFI.

[VBRED]

Being a Ford Man this is something that you would be used to. I would think if it were a fuel issue you would have issues at higher revs rather then low down. I would be checking the spark. Try the coil, rotor, distributor cap.

[racedirector]

Being a Ford Man this is something that you would be used to.

LOL! I should have expected that

I would think if it were a fuel issue you would have issues at higher revs rather then low down. I would be checking the spark. Try the coil, rotor, distributor cap.

Thanks, will check out those and see what happens.....

[racedirector]

Nope, not spark. Got tons of that and the rotor/cap all look fine. Back to the drawing board.....

[DerekP]

Check for blocked fuel filter / injectors. Check leads are on in the right order. Check fuel pump operating.

Have you adjusted your timing at all?

[Jonno]

change ur fuel filter


also, turn ur car to accessories.. can you hear the pump priming?

[racedirector]

Hi Guys

DerekP - haven't touched anything in this car since I got it, apart from getting in and driving it. Up to last night it would fire first time, every time (even on freezing cold mornings). Last night it even fired first time but then it just stopped.

jonnoo - Haven't listened to the pump yet and have also thought about replacing the filter. Hopefully my local spares place has one.

I have also checked, removed and reinserted the tachometric relay after reading this site: EFI VK 3.3 - Holdenpaedia Rang the Holden dealer about another one only to find they are now obsolete and not available. However, while poking around I noticed that 99% of the vacuum lines are stuffed and was just about to go get some new stuff to replace them all. The line that connect to the distributor advance was off altogether due to a broken T piece.

I'll replace all the vacuum lines and then do the listening for the fuel pump. If that is stuffed I hope someone can supply another one......

Cheers
RD

[Jonno]

u can get parts from cirtin places..

super cheap auto will have the filters

[racedirector]

Well it looks like I am looking for a fuel pump. Replaced all the vacuum lines and tried again but still no go. Turned everything off that made a noise and listened for the fuel pump prime but heard nothing. As a check I depressed the schrader valve in the end of the fuel rail (while standing well back) and nothing, fully depressed not even a dribble of fuel came out. Will look for any fuses/re;lays associated with the fuel pump first, then start ringing around for a pump. Any ideas on the cost of one of these things?

Cheers
RD

[racedirector]

Found one @ Bursons Blacktown - $150.00. Picking it up tomorrow, Grabbed a fuel filter already so will do both at the same time. Look like I'll be hanging on to the ole girl for a while to get my moneys worth

[racedirector]

The saga continues... bought a new pump but still nothing happening. Question: with the ignition turned on should there be power to the fuel pump at all times or just when priming. The pump is not priming but does work, I checked real quick. More annoying is the old pump also works, checked that directly from the battery as well. I attached a light to the pump wires and turned the ignition on and got nothing.

What I have checked so far: At ignition on the tachometric relay clicks. The fuel pump fuse is intact, I have also replaced it twice just in case. If the *is* supposed to be power to the pump at all times the ignition is on, any suggestions where I should be looking if there isn't?

I am not going to spend much more on this, it is only supposed to be the spare car while our other one is off the road. If it doesn't go soon, look for a for sale thread.....

Cheers

[DerekP]

So the pump works when you put power to it but just not when you turn to ignition? Could be your ignition switch - unless I'm not reading your post right...

I would have thought power at all times to the pump to get fuel to the engine but I am nooo expert when it comes to injection, sorry.

[racedirector]

Correct, no power (checked with light) at the pump when ignition turned on, pump works when powered directly from battery. Car will crank, everything else that should click does click. If it was the ignition switch, wouldn't everything else be dead? No being smart, just searching for a solution to this damn annoying problem.

If I had access to a full wiring diagram I could trace what went where, only got a gregories which is next to useless.....

Cheers

[NORTI]

I have also checked, removed and reinserted the tachometric relay

this was the problem I had on 2 of my VKC's, I had to track down a second hand one from the wreckers, that in itself wasnt an easy task. But fixed the problem!

[racedirector]

this was the problem I had on 2 of my VKC's, I had to track down a second hand one from the wreckers, that in itself wasnt an easy task. But fixed the problem!

You wouldn't happen to know what it actually does would you? Surely a replacement could be figured out if it is just basically a relay that switches power to something. Just thinking aloud as, as we found out, the originals aren't exactly easy to find.....

[NORTI]

Sorry electrical not my strong point. I got mine from advanced auto salvage now known as Holden spares here in sa, they are vk vl specialists and tend to carry the odd stuff, and sort after stuffs. They will post if you need. I would think that most wreckers could do this If they have the part.

[VK SL 3800]

Tachometric relays are quite simple, just like a normal relay BUT instead of being triggered by an earthing switch ect the tacho signal triggers it and when the signal is to low IE <100RPM the relay cuts out. Idea being if you crash and catch fire and have a broken fuel line, the engine will obviously cut out / stop which in tern stop the fuel pump just feeding away adding fuel to the fire. Later models ( VN forward) ran an oil pressure style trigger switch, same principle engine stops, oil pressure drops and fuel pump cuts out.

My replaced the one in my VK with a 308 a couple of years back and from memory it was really expensive, dont remember where he got it from though.

[racedirector]

Thanks guys.

Norti: Will go looking at wreckers tomorrow to see what I can see...

VK SL 3800: Thanks for the info, worst come to worst I will bypass the tachometric just to get it going while I try and find another. This car will most likely be for sale after I finish rebuilding my wifes car, we don't need 3 and this one is definitely surplus to requirements.

[Clutchy]

Could it be the fuesable link ? as on as.com RD ya might get help there aswell.

[racedirector]

Clutchy, how are ya mate! Did they have a fuseable link? Any idea where the hell it is? I might just try my own site, didn't actually think of that!

Cheers
RD

[racedirector]

Found out there isn't power to the pump at ign on, only appears during cranking and running. FOund this during a web search on the relay:

Tachometric Relay
. This relay was used on Bosch LE Systems on vehicles such as GMH JD Camira, VK Commodore, Ford XE Falcon, BMW, Citroen, Volvo, Peugeot and many other European makes.
In brief the tachometric relay is used to supply battery voltage to the entire EFI system and it does this via two different methods. Initially when the engine is cranking, supply voltage from the starter circuit is used to energise the relay. When the engine is running the relay contacts are held closed by sufficient primary ignition signal pulses delivered directly from the ignition coil negative terminal. Having the relay energised in this way also acts as a safety precaution because if the engine stops, the fuel pump and EFI system power supply would then be turned off.
The tachometric relay consists of seven terminals, which are connected as follows:
Relay Pin 30 – Battery supply
Connect to battery positive usually via a fusible link. This circuit should have battery voltage at all times. Relay Pin 15 – Ignition supply Connected to ignition key on circuit. This circuit should have 10-12 volts whenever the ignition is on.
Relay Pin 1 – Ignition coil signal
Connected to the ignition coil negative terminal and is used to hold the relay contacts closed when the engine is running. Relay Pin 50 – Starter signal Connected to the starter circuit and is used to energise the relay when cranking. Should have 10-12 volts when the starter is engaged.
Relay Pin 31 – Relay earth
Connected to ground and voltage should be less than 0.3 volts at all times; with a resistance to ground of less than 5 ohms.
Relay Pin 87 – Power supply to EFI system
Connected to all EFI related components, which require a 12 volt, supply. Whilst cranking or running, battery voltage should be present. This terminal can also be used to power ignition coil. When then engine is stopped, power to the coil is removed.
Relay Pin 87b – Power supply to fuel pump Connected to the positive terminal of the fuel pump. With the engine cranking and running, battery voltage should be present. running, battery voltage should be present.

Will bypass the relay via direct connection of the pins tomorrow to see what happens...

[racedirector]

Ok, found a relay in a JD Camira and put it in. Didn't work, no firing at all. Thumped the ECU as suggested by someone else (possible dry joint) and that didn't work either. Last thing I will do is as a bove, bypass the relay by direct connecting the pins toegther. If it still does not fire I'll put it up for sale so someone with more knowledge of one of these can have a go, not spending any more dollars on it especially if it is the ECU that has crapped out......GRRRRRR!!!!!

[racedirector]

No more luck today getting it to fire, almost ready to give up and sell it.

Here's what I now know:

The fuel pump DOES activate via the relay. Carried out all the tests suggested elsewhere and everything seemed fine. I even piggybacked off pin 87a and fed a wire directly to the fuel pump. With my wife cranking the car and me holding the fuel pump I confirmed it was pumping. I also bypassed the relay by connecting Pin 15 to Pins 87 & 87a and got the same results.

Moved on to spark. Disconnected #1 lead and plugged a spark plug into it. Spark definitely present during cranking indicating coil and dizzy doing what they should.

Checked the ECU connector as per the Gregories I have. Tests performed with the connector out of the ECU:

Pin 1 & earth: Ignition Pulse: Voltage present during cranking - checks open circuits between the coil and the connector

Pin 4 & 5: Crank Signal: Voltage present during cranking - checks open circuits from the starter to the connector

Pin 9 & earth: Battery supply to ECU: Voltage present while cranking - checks faulty relay (no idea which one!), fuseable link (never found where this was!), control relay (that thermatic bugger) and the wire to pin 9 on the connector

Pin 9 & 5, 9 & 13, 9 & 25 - Checks Earths: voltage present during cranking - checks open circuits in wires 5, 13 & 25

Based on how it stopped (from idling while putting on seatbelt) all the above should be making it fire. However, it just grinds over making no attempt to start at all. Even though everything is at the ECU connector that should be that doesn't mean the ECU itself isn't at fault. Don't have one of those and not intending to buy one.

So unless someone can think of something else that may be causing it to not fire I will start the advertising to get rid of it.

Cheers
RD

[kane_coro]

I know you say it has spark but have you tryed giving it a squirt of ether just to make sure its fuel problem??If youve mentioned this already,sorry my bad,little bit drunk.
Also hve you checked the gear on base of dizzy?mine shit itself and i still had spark but wouldnt run.Commo problem with the old girls

[racedirector]

I know you say it has spark but have you tryed giving it a squirt of ether just to make sure its fuel problem??If youve mentioned this already,sorry my bad,little bit drunk.
Also hve you checked the gear on base of dizzy?mine shit itself and i still had spark but wouldnt run.Commo problem with the old girls

The though had crossed my mind to squirt something down the throttle body to just see if it fired. Interesting too re the dizzy, that exact thing was suggested to me but I discounted it due to spark being present when testing with a plug. I have another suggestion by a user here as well that I am going to test as part of this ongoing saga

Cheers
RD