New motor issues

[DANNY8]

Ok I know it could be a million things, but anyone got any idea's on wat we could do to get this baby purrin' nice?

Got it running 2night so haven't had time to have a play yet, will have a play 2morrow morning.

Haven't done the timing with the light yet, but had a fiddle by hand and we couldn't get it any better.

Here's the vid.
YouTube - VK Wagz - First run!!

[immortality]

timing sounds way out

[DANNY8]

Thx mate. That's the first thing on the agenda for this morning so we'll give it a shot!

[DANNY8]

Hey also......wat do ya think the timing should be? Standard is around 6° I rekon, but I remember my mechanic saying I might have to advance it a bit or sumfin?? This is the first worked motor I've played with.

Here's a run down of the mods if ya need to know.

Blue 173 2.85L inline 6.
- Bored out 130thou to a 186 3.0L.
- Chemically cleaned block.
- Fully balanced up bottom end.
- Flat top pistons.
- JP Straight cut timing gears.
- JP Oil pump.
- New fuel pump.
- New waterpump.
- New starter motor.
- New alternator.
- Rebuilt Varajet carby.
- Motavator extractors.
- New lifters.
- Crow cam.
- Crow valve springs.
- High compression 173 head, shaved a further 10thou.
- All new ACL rings, bearings and MonoTorque gaskets.
- New harmonic balancer.
- New Top Gun gloss yellow 8.8mm Pro Racing Series leads.
- Shaved flywheel.

[immortality]

na, 6-8 degrees should be fine. i once advanced the timing to much on a 3.3 i put back in VH and it would hardly turn over, even with a 2nd battery connected. once i put the timing right it started fine

[DANNY8]

Set it between 6-8 and it wasn't to bad, altho it still has a mis. And now for some reason it won't even fire at all. Also, is a bit of blue smoke normal when running a fresh motor? And also it needs a tune bad, coz after a few quick revs there was a massive cloud of black smoke comin out the back.

I'll upload a new vid for ya.

[immortality]

sounds like you gota check your cam timing. a little smoke on a newly assembled engine is ok assuming all the lubricants used during assembly, also the rings have been bedded in yet so that will cause some as well. the missing/popping is of concern however(if soaked in fuel suggest you have a carby/fuel pump problem flooding the engine aka the big cloud of black smoke). also pull the plugs and see what they look like. if possible do a compression test and see what you get, certainly will show up if the cam timing is wrong. i note you also fitted a new balancer, you need to doublecheck that the timing mark onthe ballancer does correspond with TDC on the firing stroke (which will efect the timing on the dizzy)

[DANNY8]

Cheers mate. The bottom end was put 2gether by a local engine builder, so I'd assume it was all lubed up good. I've got a compression tester around here somewhere (bought it months ago but haven't used it yet lol) so I'll give that a shot and post up the results. A mate had a look and he said that there's a few things on the carb which should be hooked up. We just got fuel going to it, and have blocked off all the vacuum lines except one going to the vacuum advance on the dizzy. But yeah there's 2 gadgets on the carb which apparently a mate rekons on another motor he's more familiar with, it won't run without them.

When we do the compression test I'll check the plugs, and also make sure TDC lines up with the mark on the balancer.

Here's the other vid.
YouTube - Kerr Bros VK Wagz - First Drive

How do ya bed in the rings? My mechanic said for the first 500k's that I need to drive it reasonably hard. Not thrash it, but don't baby it around either.

[Tom_1569]

Haha it amazes me how u's always drive around the streets without panels and **** on. I can just imagine other drivers reactions.
Also isnt it best to put it under strain. i/e tow or put something heavy in it, but dont rev it hard, also arnt you so suppose to bed in the cam, holding it 3000 rpm for so long on first start up. Thats only things ive read, i havent done one myself.

[DANNY8]

Yeah we've done the cam already. Me and my brother will prolly be enuf weight to carry around lol, we're pretty big lads.

We live on the outside of town, and don't have many houses around us....most are young people anyways. It was an old lady in that white magna and she couldn't keep her eyes off us....I guess it's not everyday ya drive passed another car driving with no bonnet, lights, windows, fenders and exhaust lol. But yeah we only go around the corner and back, not far at all.

[immortality]

so hows this beast going?

[KRUPTD]

Most machine shops now use a special technique or way they machine the bores on the engine cylinders which means a better and finer finish and this means you dont even need to bed the engine or run it in.Basically put it together then on its first startup run it at 1800rpm/2000rpm for 10 to 15 mins so all engine components can mate with each other then take it for a drive.When we do engine at work we always bed the engines in.Also a good tip is to only fill the engine with water whenever you do head gaskets or rebuild engines only fill them with water till you have bled the cooling system and taken it for a drive because the coolant actually eats the headgasket.
Ok with bedding in the engine easy to do on a manual car do not over rev it or prolong the idling once you have bled the cooling system and run the engine at the rpm for 10 to 15mins you can go bed in the engine,so for a manual you will have to drive through top gear at 40kmph then load the engine (put your foot down)leaving it in top gear and making your way to 80kmph then leaving it in top gear and take your foot off the accelerator (no foot on brake to help slow down)and leting the car roll back to 40kmph and then do the same whilst in top gear loading the engine do this for about 15 to 20 times continuously.
For an automatic you need to disconnect the kick down cable or vaccum modulator hose and do the same leave it in drive follow the above.
Hope you guys can understand that,its easy to explain in person but typing it is a nightmare.

[DANNY8]

so hows this beast going?

Haha well at the moment it isn't going. A mate come around and I started it to show him, and a few seconds later it died and we can't seem to get it started (haven't spent much time trying to yet, been some more electrical work). There seems to be power getting to the coil, but nothing coming out. Have tried another coil which we know works, but that showed the same results. Pretty much the test light lights up on the power wire going to the dizzy, and to test output I chuck the timing light on the lead, and it wasn't picking anything up.

Is there a special way to test the output of a coil? I got a multimeter, but dunno wat to have it set on for anythin haha.

Most machine shops now use a special technique or way they machine the bores on the engine cylinders which means a better and finer finish and this means you dont even need to bed the engine or run it in.Basically put it together then on its first startup run it at 1800rpm/2000rpm for 10 to 15 mins so all engine components can mate with each other then take it for a drive.When we do engine at work we always bed the engines in.Also a good tip is to only fill the engine with water whenever you do head gaskets or rebuild engines only fill them with water till you have bled the cooling system and taken it for a drive because the coolant actually eats the headgasket.
Ok with bedding in the engine easy to do on a manual car do not over rev it or prolong the idling once you have bled the cooling system and run the engine at the rpm for 10 to 15mins you can go bed in the engine,so for a manual you will have to drive through top gear at 40kmph then load the engine (put your foot down)leaving it in top gear and making your way to 80kmph then leaving it in top gear and take your foot off the accelerator (no foot on brake to help slow down)and leting the car roll back to 40kmph and then do the same whilst in top gear loading the engine do this for about 15 to 20 times continuously.
For an automatic you need to disconnect the kick down cable or vaccum modulator hose and do the same leave it in drive follow the above.
Hope you guys can understand that,its easy to explain in person but typing it is a nightmare.

Cheers for the info mate, as soon as we get the wags running nice we'll give it a shot.

[immortality]

you need to measure the primary and secondary resistance. measure on the ohms setting between the +ve and -ive terminals on the coil, this should give a fairly low reading, somewhere around 1 ohm, then measure a between the high output terminal and the -ve and you should get a reading somewhere between 5000-8000ohms. also measure between the +ve and the high out put, you shouldn't get any reading at all.

the coil may be fine, if the ignition isn't switching the power supply (to the coil)then the coil won't fire a spark. the coil charges the windings when you apply 12volts, then when you remove that supply it fires the spark. soyou may have a issue with the electronic dizzy

[DANNY8]

Cheers mate, turns out the dizzy was stuffed lol.....chucked another one in and she ran fine.

Done a few little bits and pieces and it runs heaps nice now. It sounds lumpy on idle (but it has a half decent cam which could be the reason) and the motor doesn't stay still 100% so I'm thinkin it's still missing, but when ya put the revs up a fraction it's smooooooth as, no misfiring, and no popping sounds through the exhaust like last time.....found out the rockers were heaps loose, after a tighten it seems to be running alot better....just gotta get it tuned coz it's still running rich.

Straight cuts aren't as loud as I thought they'd be, a bit disappointed with them....hopefully they get louder!!

[DANNY8]

Check this vid out....chucked a muffler on to shut it up. Now can hear it's ticking heaps. The rockers were heaps loose so we tightened them, then the motor was veeeery quiet for about the next 10 seconds then she started making this horrible bloody noise again.

Anyone know how to shut them up good and proper? The noise is giving me the ****s lol. They're the self adjusters too, she's a blue 173.

YouTube - Kerr Bros VK Wagz - Noisy rockers?

[Paiste402]

Check this vid out....chucked a muffler on to shut it up. Now can hear it's ticking heaps. The rockers were heaps loose so we tightened them, then the motor was veeeery quiet for about the next 10 seconds then she started making this horrible bloody noise again.

Anyone know how to shut them up good and proper? The noise is giving me the ****s lol. They're the self adjusters too, she's a blue 173.

YouTube - Kerr Bros VK Wagz - Noisy rockers?

so when u do tighten them down its quiet?

hmmm, maybe u have bad gaskets that arent biting in and staying sealed. do the bolts on the head have good washers? Sounds like its just wriggling loose if thats the case...

BTW, i love that lumpy sound from those old straights! Engine looks tops! Great engine bay

[Paiste402]

Check this vid out....chucked a muffler on to shut it up. Now can hear it's ticking heaps. The rockers were heaps loose so we tightened them, then the motor was veeeery quiet for about the next 10 seconds then she started making this horrible bloody noise again.

Anyone know how to shut them up good and proper? The noise is giving me the ****s lol. They're the self adjusters too, she's a blue 173.

YouTube - Kerr Bros VK Wagz - Noisy rockers?

so when u do tighten them down its quiet?

hmmm, maybe u have bad gaskets that arent biting in and staying sealed. do the bolts on the head have good washers? Sounds like its just wriggling loose if thats the case...

BTW, i love that lumpy sound from those old straights! Engine looks tops! Great engine bay

[immortality]

it's a bit of a long shot but i assume you have used the original rockers and you now have a cam with a fair bit more lift then standard? what happens is that the rockers wear where they slide over the valve stem tip. now that high lift cam has altered where that rocker moves over the valve stem. unfortunatly there is probably some wear from all the years service, with the extra lift it's moving over that area where the wear is and onto a unworn area, there is probably a small ridge there. also with the extra lift and stock push rods you might having some issues with rocker position on the ball pivot, it might be hitting the end of the slot. one option is to get shorter push rods, the cheaper option is to pack the rockers up with a washer and get the rocker motion back ito the area it should be. at the very least you need to torque the rocker bolts down properly.

[PEAKN6]

do these bolts need to be torqued down? coz we just did em up wif the ratchet.

[immortality]

do these bolts need to be torqued down? coz we just did em up wif the ratchet.

there is a specific torque for these bolts. also, your rocker geometry is goingto be off it oyu have decked the block and skimmed the head to raise the CR. your stock pushrods may be to long. put some engineers marking blue on the rocker face, put back on the engine and turn over by hand. then remove the rocker and you can see where the rocker is pushing onthe valve stem (and see where it's doing tehe work). also turn engine over by hand and see if the rocker is hitting the edge of the slot in the rocker/ballseat. the simplest solution maybe a washer under the rocker seat just to lift everything up a little.

my gregories manual for the VH 3.3 says 32nm for the rocker arm pivot bolts. should be about the same. have snapped off rocker arm pivot bolts when re-using em on a 308. i'd throw em out and replace em with some cap screws to be safe. also when you torque em up turn the engine over to make sure that the cam isn't trying to lift the valve

[KRUPTD]

If the 173 engine/head is any similar to a 186 breed,you will have to adjust the valves with the engine running.I will get the method for you,cant remember it off the top of my head but will find out if they are the same.