Black Or Blue?

[Kim]

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum. I have just bought a VK with a carburettored black 3.3 motor in it. While I have owned lots of holdens with red motors, blue and black motors are a bit of a mystery to me.

The black motor in this VK has a couple of problems (sounds like the big end bearings is stuffed and the rings are a bit screwed too). I have come across a blue motor in running order from a mate that I wanted to throw in it while I work on building up a proper motor.

What I want to know now is whether there is any issues with doing this swap.
1. Will the VK trimatic/flexplate hook up to the blue without alteration?
2. Will the black motor inlet/exhaust manifolds hook up to the blue?
3. What is the carby on the black motor (I haven't picked the car up yet) and is it a two barrel?
4. Can I run a 350 holley in it's place?
5. Is there anything else I should do?

Thanks for any help!
Kim in Brisbane

[xstatic]

sorry this is off the subject but i heavily recommened the change from black to blue the blacks have alot of problems when worked hard the main problem is the pistions cracking

cheers

[Kim]

Thanks for the answer! Yeah I had heard that.

Can you help me with any of the other questions?

[OSL-060]

Welcome to Just Commodores Kim

1). I'd say yes but don't take it as gospel

2). That's a good question again don't quote me but the blue and black motor both have the 12 port head so I don't see why not. I've always thought the Blue and Black 202 bottom ends where the same, both with the star fire rods and minor differences over the old red motor.

3). The Carby on the Black/Blue motor is a 2 barrel rochester and a disgusting oily POS in my humble opinion.

4). You could run a 350CFM Holley but that's alot of fuel for the little 6. If you plan on doing a cam/lifters change then I'd be all for it, keep in mind Holleys tend to be good for one thing on small motors- flat to the floor. A cheap and great mod for a 202 is a 2 Barrel Weber from an XF. Both carbies require an adapter plate or after market manifold. The XF Carb 'may' be a bolt on but don't quote me.


5). Pacemaker Extractors, 2.5" Mandrel Bent Lukey System, 35/75 or similar cam, regraphed dizzy with new points, straight cut timing gears if you like noise or just a decent double row chain and gear set. The mods are endless depending on budget. 202's with standard bottom ends aren't the strongest so I wouldn't go too far.

QUOTE sorry this is off the subject but i heavily recommened the change from black to blue the blacks have alot of problems when worked hard the main problem is the pistions cracking

The 202 motor is basically a 186 with lengthened stroke and an increase in main bearing journal diameter. A stroke increase really requires a new block with increased deck height but Holden got around the problem by moving the piston pin 1/8" closer to the piston crown. This introduced a weakness in the piston in the vicinity of the lower oil-ring groove. The top of a 202 piston has been known to break off if the engine is chronically overheated. That is why you should pay careful attention to the cooling and ignition timing of the 202.

Hope that helps a little bit.

Cheers

Jake

[Grunter]

Make sure that you also get the blue HEI dizzy with the motor as you will need to use that, due to the vk running a computer for the timing (doesnt have vacuum advance). Double check this as i cant remember exactly

[grover]

QUOTE (Kim @ Jan 27 2004, 02:54 PM) Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum. I have just bought a VK with a carburettored black 3.3 motor in it. While I have owned lots of holdens with red motors, blue and black motors are a bit of a mystery to me.

The black motor in this VK has a couple of problems (sounds like the big end bearings is stuffed and the rings are a bit screwed too). I have come across a blue motor in running order from a mate that I wanted to throw in it while I work on building up a proper motor.

What I want to know now is whether there is any issues with doing this swap.
1. Will the VK trimatic/flexplate hook up to the blue without alteration?
2. Will the black motor inlet/exhaust manifolds hook up to the blue?
3. What is the carby on the black motor (I haven't picked the car up yet) and is it a two barrel?
4. Can I run a 350 holley in it's place?
5. Is there anything else I should do?

Thanks for any help!
Kim in Brisbane
hi kim.i built a worked black 202 for my old vk.black and blue are basically exactly the same engines.black has the crap est ignition system,if the blue motor comes with its electronic ignition{no points here jake old boy}, that is a good alternative to the est.the black motors other only real difference to the blue is that it has a lot more pollution gear,air pump etc.the only difference in the heads is that the black has a lot of pollution crap running into it above the manifolds.
the carby is a varijet=crap.the holley will run really well on the stock 202,should actually be cheaper to run than whats on it.but if you run a holley you need to know that there is a microswitch on the varijet that advances up your ignition timing once you reach a certain rev range.the best way to get around this is to rip the est out and install that blue motor dizzy.the blue motor has basically the same carby though{no microswitch,just remember that if you use it}.
basically it is just a matter of dropping the engine in and bolting everything up to it.

jake has given some good info on warming your engine up a bit when you build one up{apart from the double row timing chain set-holden sixes dont have timing chains at all-late night jake??? }
.my engine went really hard,no problems at all with a hot 202 if you build them to last.acl duralite hq race pistons,35/72 solid cam and lifters,roller rockers,balanced/blueprinted bottom end,arp rod bolts-a must,jp high volume oil pump,lightened flywheel,stage 3 yella terra 12 port with an extra 30 thou shaved off it,20 thou off block deck,blue motor electronic ignition,4 barrel manifold and 600 holley four barrel,let me know if you want any more info.
Grover

[Kim]

Thanks for the advive Jake, Grunter and Grover. Really kewl.

I have a blue electronic dizzy (I was going to put it on my red motor but didn't get around to it...) so that is good. Hmmm, that will mean that the black module will be trash!

So putting the blue motor in should not be a nightmare so long as I make sure that the right vacuum hoses are used and the right ones are blocked. Could b fun, but if I use a 350 holley then it becomes very simple.

OK. The next question will be about my rebuild. The target is to get a strong 3.3 with a bit of a kick but still economical to run, cheap to build and capable of towing.

I have a spare blue motor (on top of the one I will put into the car to keep it going), the black motor that is currently in it. I intend to run extractors and probably the holley (I already have one). From my red motor days a cam with IN/EX of 25/65 duration about 270-275 should be OK with a lift of about .443"? (Stage 2). I think that this would requite about 10:1 compression from memory which should work on current ocatne fuels I hope.

1. The question here is, for this sort of motor will I need any porting do you think?
2. Will the 12 port head flow well enough with the standard sized valves?
3. Is the lift within rangle of a standard hydraulic lift/standard rocker combo for this motor?
4. Is there any advantage in using a black head on a blue motor?

LOL, I reckon it is almost time to go for a trip down to the local workshop and have a talk to them but before I do I like to have some sort of idea what I am talking about so your thoughts and ideas are appreciated! If you know of a good shop on the southside of Bris then let me know too.

Kim

[grover]

hey kim.my motor didnt like unleaded,not enough octane,ran really well on premium,my compression ratio was similiar to what you are thinking about.1.port work-never hurts,depends on your budget,but with a cam profile of 25/65 dont go too silly,just a bit of a cleanup would probably do.2.standard valves would be ok.all depends on your budget again.3. standard rocker gear would be fine,the only reason i had roller rockers was because with solid cams you need to be able to adjust valve clearances,bolt down and leave them 202 gear is no good for solids,fine for hydraulics.4.no advantage,just extra holes to plug up{pollution ports}i used a brand new blue head on my black motor.
fuel economy is just a chance of getting lucky i think.the engine i described before was amazingly economical{yep 600 holley on a 6}.on a trip18 mnths ago from tassie to bourke nsw and back it only used $200 worth of fuel for nearly 2500kms.my v6 vr actually uses more fuel than the vk did.very strange i know but true.it was my wifes everyday car,her foot isnt as big as mine though.

[Kim]

Wow, that is kewl fuel economy!

When I said current fuels I meant I would build it for LRP which is running about 96 octane I think. I am pretty sure that the ideal compression ration for PULP (LRP is made of PULP plus the AVR additive apparently) is 9.8 to 1.

That said I guess I could just have the valve seats hardened for ULP and such in case PULP becomes cheaper than LRP.

I really appreciate the comments though. I am copying them into a word doc to use as reference when I am planning the changes.

K.

[OSL-060]

haha Grover I'll fix that up- regraphing was me stuck on the red motor for some reason. No excuses for the chain too many years between messing with 202's. Crossflow 250's have the chain set up.

I stand majorrly corrected

Jake

[grover]

you are spot on with .your comments about the fuel and octane ratings kim.probably would pay to have your seats done.you seem to have a fair idea of what you are talking about so i think you will go alright.
thought i had better point out your little indiscretions jake.you have too much information running around in that head of yours.only a matter of time till the wrong stuff is transmitted through your fingers. hahaha

[Rallyguy]

All sounds like good advice...

Some say the blue blocks are better castings, all the rally guys run with those and don't have any problems. We only do basic stuff like balancing the bottom end, the standard bearings hold up well enough. Obviously HQ flatops too, brings comp up to about 10.2 depending on how much is removed during decking.

The head is where most of the gains are. We have to run the standard iron 12 port heads - not the now rare YT alloy ones. Just massive valves and huge ports - probably this is the most expensive item.

Roller rockers if you decide to go mechanical lifters - recommended, and of course a solid profile cam. I use and recommend one of the 1972 HDT racing grinds... very special..

Port matched tripple 45 webers or dellortos, or even injection if the budget will go that far.

My current 202 cost $4500 to build and around $1200 for the carbs so it's expensive. Then again I konw a guy who spent over $25,000 on a 202 - for an honest 300HP though.

As for exhaust the freer the flow the better with these things as the heads really struggle no matter how much porting you do. I've found the Pacemaker 12 port headers work best... cut off the lower collector and run a duel system. If legal in your state try to keep the pipe length short as possible - side dump.

Of course the blue dizzy is the best but after these mods MUST be graphed by someong who knows what they are doing.

The standard Aussie 4sp will hold up ok providing you don't dump the clutch too often, go for the M21 out of a V8, the 6cyl M21 is too rare these days. The V8 M21 will fit on easy with a spacer plate from CRS.. Reason is the above engine is peaky as buggery and you'll need the close ratios...

Enjoy