Urgent Advice need on the L77

[HEXEM]

Hi everyone,

This question is targeted primarly at those who have done work on the new L77 engine being installed in the Series 2 V8 commodores. But happy for others to comment.

First of all, I have a 2007 SSV Auto rock stock. It came from the factory with an L98.

n the last 2 years I have had 3 engines (L98's) replaced under warranty because of excessive cold start engine knock (possibly valve train related).

In November 2010 the new engine (No.3) was installed and lasted 8,000klm before it too started knockin its head off. Holden have inspected the car last month and have been advised by Holden TAC to replace the motor with the latest model (L77).

Today I received a phone call from Holden that an L77 will be supplied and fitted to my car. But before they can install the engine they need to change the camshaft in the L77 with the L98 camshaft from my current motor.

It was explained that the Holden engineers said that it has to be changed because its an AFM camshaft and needs to be changed to a non-AFM camshaft. They also need to change some seals under the valley plate or something.

This just doesn't seem right to me as the L77 service both AFM and non-AFM variants of the series 2 commodore.

Its also my understanding the the L77 STILL uses a mix of AFM and non-AFM lifters. If this is the case wouldn't an L98 camshaft lobes cause issues where the AFM lifters are located (which have a different size pushrod to the non-AFM lifter?)

1. Could anyone confirm that the L77 still uses 2 different lifters (AFM and Non) and that installing an L98 camshaft in the L77 is likely to cause major issue with excessive lift etc?

2. Why would they have said to install an L98 camshaft because the camshaft in it is an AFM one? As my ECM does not have AFM activated in the software it shouldn't matter what camshaft is in it?

3. Can this motor (L77 factory spec) be installed without the need to change anything?

Holden has said they will install the motor as is however I would be made to sign an indemnity form which states that if there motor fails its on me.

Appreciate the feedback.

Cheers
Phil

P.S. If people do not want to post advice on the forum please send a PM.

[jace75]

probably because your car is older than the AFM model and they dont want you to have it without paying for the new technology.
from what i understand the rest is the same ....

[Luke V8]

Jeez phil - the issues you've had I can't believe Holden haven't just given you a new series 2 anyway!

[tomholzy]

thats interesting because the L77 uses AFM collapsible lifters and has a slightly different cam than the L98 whethers its AFM or nonAFM

[gt3540rx]

I've heard the L77 has a slightly milder cam, so would your new engine need the L98 cam for the engine management side of things?

[HEXEM]

probably because your car is older than the AFM model and they dont want you to have it without paying for the new technology.
from what i understand the rest is the same ....

I'm not asking for AFM its the only engine that is now available. I don't even care if I loose 10kw by puting the engine in for whatever reason... I just want a motor that doesn't knock...

I aksed if it was because of my ECM software and the response was that the ECM was not an issue with the L77. I just can't understand their logic on this.

If I had a 2011 SS Auto and went to a tuner and said turn off the AFM mode in the ECM tune what happens to the engine? Does it detonate because it goes oh look I should be in AFM but I'm not being told to so I will just shit myself!.. Hardly I think..

Anyway back on topic... If the L77 uses both AFM and Non lifters (8x8) then they can't use an L98 spec camshaft because of the amount of lift that is generated on the non-AFM lifter and differing length pushrods.... But I need someone whos done this work and can verify.

[HussySV6]

Let them #### up again and then ask for a 2011 SSV REDLINE

[HEXEM]

I've heard the L77 has a slightly milder cam, so would your new engine need the L98 cam for the engine management side of things?

I've been told that the ECM program is not an issue.

[HEXEM]

Let them #### up again and then ask for a 2011 SSV REDLINE

haha, would be nice but they'd probably just try again.

[Thumpin]

I don't understand why they can't just throw the whole L77 motor in.

Sounds suspicious to me. I hope the clown doing the surgery is familiar with all these apparent AFM - NONAFM differences and puts everything in its right place. Maybe you should be on-hand Phil...
You can also do a socket count before the manifold goes back on...

I wonder if this donk is going to smell. My L77 did!

[M500]

For what it is worth, I would be insisting on a brand new engine that is not tampered with at all. Even if this means they need to change the computer, etc, etc. This way you are ensured of a brand new engine, factory warranty and the best chance that you will solve your problems.

I have never heard of a factory backed dealer wanting to modify a brand new engine under warranty.

[UFO]

Holden has said they will install the motor as is however I would be made to sign an indemnity form which states that if there motor fails its on me.

I think regardless of the advice you get here, this seals the deal.
Let them do what they think needs doing, and if it doesnt make any difference (and the real cause of the problem continues to cause dramas) then they'll just have to change things over again.
There's no way you could agree to sign a disclaimer... so you really dont have an option.

However you'd think that a brand new engine from the factory wouldnt require opening at all.... it does sound sus, but really- if they insist on this disclaimer thing you havent got an option.

[bluessv]

Hey Hexem, did you end up calling that performance shop about what exactly are the internals of the L77??

[HEXEM]

Hey Hexem, did you end up calling that performance shop about what exactly are the internals of the L77??

Hi mate, yep as dicussed on the phone. It was thought that all 16 lifters may have been the same in the L77. I have since confirmed withe NJC Corp in Melbourne that the L77 has a combination of AFM and non AFM lifters (8 of each).

Just for some additional information. The L77 also uses the same camshaft as the L76 (Holden Part No. 12625438) Prior to Aug 2010 the camshaft for L76 was Part No. 12607715.

[jace75]

i still think they dont want you to have the AFM because it is later tech. that wasnt a smart ass answer.
why else would they be opening a new off the line engine and taking out the cam and replacing it with old one?
as you have said doesnt make sense.
Holden are tight they very rarely give you something for free.
as suggested insist on the unopened engine being installed in your car.

[SSVAGON]

i still think they dont want you to have the AFM because it is later tech. that wasnt a smart ass answer.
why else would they be opening a new off the line engine and taking out the cam and replacing it with old one?
as you have said doesnt make sense.
Holden are tight they very rarely give you something for free.
as suggested insist on the unopened engine being installed in your car.

How about this,

Maybe the cam shafts have been the issue/problem all along. Maybe they dont want to chance putting in a new motor into HEXEM's car given his history even if it is a L77.
As HEXEM said the cam shaft part number according to him is the same in a L77 as it is in the L76 until after Aug 2010. I would bet the L77 they have or the instock L77's are all built pre Aug 2010. If it is I suspect they want to change the cam to the later part number or a revised cam shaft or even do the cam bearings as well before it goes in.
Just a different way to look at it. Persoanlly I dont think Holden could care less about AFM.

[jace75]

ok ill bite whats all that got to do with a new revised motor?
why do they have to open it? there are thousands of s2's out there now that are working fine.
they dont need to change a single thing to put it in.

cam comes with new engine?

[HEXEM]

Jace, I think your right. Taking out the cam thats in it and putting in an L98 cam plus changing some seals under the valley plate so I dont have and engine with new technology. There is no other reason for it. But their logic is flawed otherwise unless they can explain the technical reason why it wouldn't work as is.

If this is the case of the technology what a petty and childish way to act. Clearly they couldn't care less about satisfying the customer who spent near $50k (on their product) which I now think is a bucket of shit. They could have atleast said they would put a brand new L98 camshaft in it, not scavenge it from a used motor with a fault they can't diagnose.

The old saying penny wise, pound foolish!

On the issue of part changes in the L77. From what I and some others have been working out, there are a couple of member on here that have mid 2010 built commodore series 2 V8's that have developed the same knocking noise I have had (and currently still do). It the U.S. GM there addresses a number of issue with valvetrain rattle and other things by revising the internal componant but the parts were not available until after Dec2010 (approximatly). These parts would not have filtered through the production of L77 engine from North America until 2011. Those who own the same car only built from March 2011 seem to have no issues as shown in the videos. In 2011 the Holden parts system records a change in the part number for a replacement camshaft which services both L76 and L77.

It is purely speculative but L77 build and delivered before Jan 2011 which have an engine build date around July 2010 could infact have L76 engine with upgraded external to meet the required specs. An L77 is essentially an up spec L76. This could all be proven wrong if someone with a March 2011 or later build V8 complains of the same issue.

[SSVAGON]

On the issue of part changes in the L77. From what I and some others have been working out, there are a couple of member on here that have mid 2010 built commodore series 2 V8's that have developed the same knocking noise I have had (and currently still do). It the U.S. GM there addresses a number of issue with valvetrain rattle and other things by revising the internal componant but the parts were not available until after Dec2010 (approximatly). These parts would not have filtered through the production of L77 engine from North America until 2011. Those who own the same car only built from March 2011 seem to have no issues as shown in the videos. In 2011 the Holden parts system records a change in the part number for a replacement camshaft which services both L76 and L77.

It is purely speculative but L77 build and delivered before Jan 2011 which have an engine build date around July 2010 could infact have L76 engine with upgraded external to meet the required specs. An L77 is essentially an up spec L76. This could all be proven wrong if someone with a March 2011 or later build V8 complains of the same issue.

I think you got it there.

[HEXEM]

I have received some addtional information, this time from a Walkinshaw Performance centre stating that while there is nothing mechanical within the motor itself that requires changing, they will have to change the following.

1. L77 fuel injectors - reason - Because they are different to cope with E-85 flex fuel. Apparently my ECM will not control them with the proper flow rate or something?

2. The Throttle Body - reason - Something to do with my current L98 TB blade is alloy and the L77 TB has a brass one. It also opens and closes in a different direction. Again something to do with the ECM control?

3. The Manifold Absoulte Pressure (MAP) sensor needs to be changed to the one I have now as the later model MAP sensor will not work properly.

So basically they are saying the all these (TB, Fuel Injectors and MAP sensor) need to be swapped over from my current L98 to the new L77. But it will need to be checked first to make 100% sure.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. It might be a case of slight recalibration of the ECM to accommodate for these minor things. The only thing that might be an issue is the connectors on the engine wiring harness for the TB and MAP sensor. They might not fit the newer ones.

Cheers

Phil

[M500]

Given the history with the job and the labor costs of changing these part, I would have thought that they would change the engine and the computer to ensure that they have eliminated the problem. It would also be much better from a customer service and PR point of view to make sure you praise their handling of the situation rather than rust the backlash of a genuinely unsatisfied customer.

See if you can insist in a complete, stock, untouched engine to be installed with whatever it takes to make it work and retain your warranty.

[HEXEM]

Well the final word is Holden wont install a new engine without swaping the camshaft that is in the L77 with an L98 cam. They agreed to supply a new camshaft and not remove the one from my faulty L98. So I guess we'll see how it goes.

[HEXEM]

Well Holden never ceases to amaze me.

Here is the lastest. The new L77 (bastardised 3/4) engine is in the process of being fitted to my car at the moment.

I get word today that they (the dealer) has changed the camshaft from the L77 with a new L98 camshaft.

Also as outlined in the Techline they have removed the L77 sump and will take the sump from my August 2009 built L98 (last of the L98's) and fit it to the what was new L77.

There are 2 proceedures on the techline one for a 2007, 2008, 2009 VE with the L98 and then there are the 2009, 2010 VEs with an L98. If the L98 was fitted back in 07, 08 and early 09 is says to use the sump, dipstick tube and dipstick etc etc. For the later model VE (so MY9.5 owards) you on need to replace the Valley cover and crankshaft. There is no mention of the need to change the sump.

I've told the dealer that yes my car is a 2007 VE but the engine is a L98 from the MY9.5 series which is why it only takes 7.6ltrs of oil. The earlier L98 had an 8.3ltr sump.

This is just complete bullsh!t that Holden will replace an engine with a new 3/4 motor but pull it apart to swap bits (like sump, etc) because? who f$!kn knows. From what I can gather seeing NO ONE will give me a technical reason why it is imperative to change theses parts (such as if they don't the ass end will fall out of it). It defeats the purpose of supplying a new motor which is covered under a 2 year 50,000klm Holden warranty.

I have reached the point with all this bullsh!t I have had to go through, that I will be publishing all my frustration on the various Motor magazine sites, Youtube and anywhere else it will get coverage. Basically warning people to be wary of the way Holden deals with Mechanical engineering faults. My recommendation would be not to buy a V8 holden ever. They have had so many years to get it right an still can't do it.

I am also in the process of obtaining professional advice in which to take the matter further.

NOTE: I should add though. Except for what appears to be a lack of care resulting in the sump being removed possibly unnecessarly, my local Holden dealer have been great to work with.

Also was told today that they no longer take the motor out through the top of the engine bay. They remove the engine out the bottom. Yep got to pull all the subframe crap, steering, etc etc out to change the engine. What use to be a 2 day job now becomes a week (maybe longer)......

Heres a pic of the so called NEW 3/4 engine minus the sump.

[HEXEM]

I received advice today that they will be refitting the sump that came with the new motor as it shouldn't have been removed.

I'm glad the service manager is on the ball. +1 for him.

[SSVAGON]

Golf clap.

Thank god for that.