Direct Injection VE Series 2 or VF?

[1991_Vn2nV]

Whats everyones thought? Mooney said released by 2008 hopefully... so will we see it in the VE Series 2 or will it wait til the VF?

Mooney said a 10% decrease in fuel economy so the VE II or VF should be around the 9.9L per 100km... And 12% power increase means 200kw and 220kw or there abouts V6's very soon?

Its more noisey but what other cons are there to direct injection?

[Scotty_Doesn't_Know]

And 12% power increase means 200kw and 220kw or there abouts V6's very soon?

Seriously... Why are so many people hooked on more power? Torque is where you should be focusing. The VT Series 1 V8s only had 185kw of power! Seriously, what do you NEED all that power for? Holden should build a turbo diesel engine with swags of torque sooner rather than later... THAT's where the REAL interest lies.

Its more noisey but what other cons are there to direct injection?

Noise can be overcome. Fuel lines are under higher pressure... That could be a con. Only time will tell if Holden can REALLY pull of direct injection. IMHO they still haven't come close to perfecting the Alloytec V6 (and it's exhaust system).

[1991_Vn2nV]

Seriously... Why are so many people hooked on more power? Torque is where you should be focusing. The VT Series 1 V8s only had 185kw of power! Seriously, what do you NEED all that power for? Holden should build a turbo diesel engine with swags of torque sooner rather than later... THAT's where the REAL interest lies.

179kw I wasnt necessarily stating thats what I want, but just stating what the power increase of direct injection is.

Would the direct injection be in every model or not? As extra costs are involved obviously...

[Scotty_Doesn't_Know]

Would the direct injection be in every model or not?

I can't see why not. Otherwise it would be like leaving the Ecotec in the VZ as well as having more expensive Alloytec engines. It's all or nothing I'd say.

[1991_Vn2nV]

Fair enough. Wheels said it wouldonly add $220 to the COST of each engine, but they would have to re-coupe the costs of design etc. as well

[Scotty_Doesn't_Know]

Fair enough. Wheels said it wouldonly add $220 to the COST of each engine, but they would have to re-coupe the costs of design etc. as well

Yup and since when has a new model (even just a Series II) not had a slight price increase?

[1991_Vn2nV]

Yeah true...Will be interesting to see what happens anyway.

[klaw81]

There's no reason they couldn't reserve direct injection for the higher spec Alloytech engines so it was only for SV6, Calais, Statesman etc...they already have different drivetrains so it wouldn't be any real hassle. They could then use it as a selling point for the up-spec cars, and later upgrade the base models in the following model as an "improvement."

[drewins]

fight fight fight

[J_D]

[QUOTE=Scotty_Doesn't_Know]Seriously... Why are so many people hooked on more power? Torque is where you should be focusing. The VT Series 1 V8s only had 185kw of power! Seriously, what do you NEED all that power for? Holden should build a turbo diesel engine with swags of torque sooner rather than later... THAT's where the REAL interest lies.


Yeah, they should be designing engines with more torque not kilowatts. Torque is what makes a car easy to drive without revving the ring out of it. It also increases fuel economy.

[1991_Vn2nV]

340NM of torque on the alloytec 190 is still pretty decent imo. And torque is available much lower in the rev range than the previous models.

Hasnt anyone noticed the VE's max torque range? 2600rpm or so

[andyman]

the falcons have something like 385nm of torque, holden still a little behind on that one

[Scotty_Doesn't_Know]

It's not the amount of torque, but its availability through the rev range that is important...

[J_D]

Imagine how much torque it would have if it was a long stroke engine.
The VE is 94.0mm bore and 85.6mm stroke, which doesnt make for a very tractable engine.

[1991_Vn2nV]

Well the stroke is basically the same as the 3.8L engines which were an 86mm stroke.

[Full Spectrum]

DI in VF for Orion spoil the party with DI 215kw 360Nm 9.5l/100 and a new 6 speed auto for the V6.

[1991_Vn2nV]

The Orion might have direct injection also though?

Direct injection and alloy block as well is my bet for the Orion 4.0L..

[drewins]

Why will they call it Orion? Toyota Aurion anyone?

[Full Spectrum]

The Orion might have direct injection also though?

Direct injection and alloy block as well is my bet for the Orion 4.0L..

They could but i doubt it would do much good. I was told by a little birdy that Ford Oz would use a V6 engine 2morrow if they could only get decent power and torque from it.

Why will they call it Orion? Toyota Aurion anyone?

It's like a code name. Others used a copperhead hammerhead.

[klaw81]

I was told by a little birdy that Ford Oz would use a V6 engine 2morrow if they could only get decent power and torque from it.

Straight 6 or V6 makes absolutely no difference to power and/or torque. As far as efficiency goes, there's no noticeable difference. Ford hasn't used a V6 in a Falcon simply because there's hasn't been a suitable V6 block to work with, and it costs way too much to develop a new one from scratch. Besides, their whole chassis architecture is set up for a straight 6.

There are advantages and disadvantages to using a V configuration.
A V6 needs a short, wide engine bay and can be positioned further behind the front axle for better weight distribution.
A straight six needs a long narrow engine bay but is much easier to balance for smooth running.

Mercedes & BMW have the same argument - Mercedes things V6's have more advantages, BMW is sticking with the straight 6.

[1991_Vn2nV]

They could but i doubt it would do much good. I was told by a little birdy that Ford Oz would use a V6 engine 2morrow if they could only get decent power and torque from it.

The Ford boss had confirmed they will keep the same 4.0L engine for the 2008 Falcon (Orion) although with slight alterations. So it WILL be a straight 6 still, not a V6.

Rumours are they might destroke it back to a 3.6L also, making the bore and stroke exactly even.

[Full Spectrum]

Straight 6 or V6 makes absolutely no difference to power and/or torque. As far as efficiency goes, there's no noticeable difference. Ford hasn't used a V6 in a Falcon simply because there's hasn't been a suitable V6 block to work with, and it costs way too much to develop a new one from scratch. Besides, their whole chassis architecture is set up for a straight 6.

There are advantages and disadvantages to using a V configuration.
A V6 needs a short, wide engine bay and can be positioned further behind the front axle for better weight distribution.
A straight six needs a long narrow engine bay but is much easier to balance for smooth running.

Mercedes & BMW have the same argument - Mercedes things V6's have more advantages, BMW is sticking with the straight 6.

Yes thats what i said If they could slot a V6 in that had 200kw and 400Nm they would tomorrow or for the 08 Falcon. But have you seen the size of the Falcon 6 It's long it's wide it's ****en huge. They could do with a V6.

The Ford boss had confirmed they will keep the same 4.0L engine for the 2008 Falcon (Orion) although with slight alterations. So it WILL be a straight 6 still, not a V6.

Rumours are they might destroke it back to a 3.6L also, making the bore and stroke exactly even.

So are they talking about a 3.6lt and 4lt?

[klaw81]

Yes thats what i said If they could slot a V6 in that had 200kw and 400Nm they would tomorrow or for the 08 Falcon. But have you seen the size of the Falcon 6 It's long it's wide it's ****en huge. They could do with a V6.

So are they talking about a 3.6lt and 4lt?

They're nearly there now - 190kW and 383Nm for the standard straight-six. The new OHC introduced for BA has worked wonders for what is basically a 30-year old engine design. The only advantage to changing to a V6 would be to improve weight distribution....at an enormous development cost.

I have no doubt at all that with some more fine tuning, the old clanger could be good for 200kW and 400Nm for Orion. No surprises that they're sticking with the tried and tested 4L - albeit alongside a diesel option (?) and possibly also including direct injection.

The standard Falcon motor isn't really all that massive, it's just sitting in an engine bay designed to fit a 5.4L V8...there's no reason to make it compact (there's heaps of room available) so it's all spread out for easier servicing.

I would be very surprised if they introduce a 2-tier engine option in Orion. Ford has no history of 2 different displacement 6-cylinder engines in their line-up. If it's a 3.6L, it will be 3.6L in all cars...perhaps with a more powerful version for XR6 and luxury models.

[1991_Vn2nV]

The rumours arent about a 2-tier engine option...

The rumours I heard were they would de-stroke the 4.0L engine... having a 3.6L option only. No 4.0L engine anymore.

But that was just a rumour. The Straight 6 will definitely remain with some alterations. Whether this is direct injection, alloy block or destroked who knows

[Full Spectrum]

They're nearly there now - 190kW and 383Nm for the standard straight-six. The new OHC introduced for BA has worked wonders for what is basically a 30-year old engine design. The only advantage to changing to a V6 would be to improve weight distribution....at an enormous development cost.

I have no doubt at all that with some more fine tuning, the old clanger could be good for 200kW and 400Nm for Orion. No surprises that they're sticking with the tried and tested 4L - albeit alongside a diesel option (?) and possibly also including direct injection.

The standard Falcon motor isn't really all that massive, it's just sitting in an engine bay designed to fit a 5.4L V8...there's no reason to make it compact (there's heaps of room available) so it's all spread out for easier servicing.

I would be very surprised if they introduce a 2-tier engine option in Orion. Ford has no history of 2 different displacement 6-cylinder engines in their line-up. If it's a 3.6L, it will be 3.6L in all cars...perhaps with a more powerful version for XR6 and luxury models.

Ahh mate if you seen my brothers BA you wouldn't say it's not that big, The older model he owned EF was tinny compared to this monster.
But my brother will tell you this it's not over the moon impressive, It has some of the old engines drone sound still the DOHC is noisy and for such a big powerful and high torque engine it's very slow to 70-80. It's a touch like giving the old lady born in 1903 a new set of clothes 2006 clothes, The I6 does cut back some of there options up front and the V8 is that wide you can't even change headers without removing the engine. They have got to have the 2 biggest 6's and 8's going around.
I don't like the sound of a 3.6lt taking over from the 4lt. Some mates had to be slapped around the head to believe holden uses a 3.6lt now and not a 3.8lt engine.