MF5 Rebuild Fifth Gear Synchro Assembly

[Holdfast]

This is my first rebuild of a MF5 and I ned some help

I'm not sure which way the 3 little Shift Plates go back into the Synchro Hub

Does the raised part of the shift plate face towards the centre of the Synchro hub or should the raised part face towards the Synchro Sleeve.


Just so I'm not confusing myself or anyone the Fifth Gear Synchro assembly in my repair manual says it comprises of the following parts:

Insert Retainer
3 x Shift Plates
3 x Springs
Synchro Hub
Synchro Sleeve
Synchro Ring

I took images of most things but when I dismantled the Synchro assembly, 2 of the shift plates came out (spring loaded) except for one as I fumbled to keep the other one in its place. Err, it would have been funny if anyone was watching this amateure at work; 3 hands would have helped

Anyway, I've stuffed up and need some help to get theSynchro back the right way

Cheers

[Holdfast]

Ok, this may sound like a dumb question but now I deffinitely know why I'm having problems with which way the shift plates should be orientated.

They'll work in either orientation!

Or

Will they?

I suspected that the box had been split open before because the Mainshaft Nut staking and the Layshaft Nut (27mm) staking had double marks about 10mm apart which indicated someone else had had a go many years ago.

I rang the bloke I bought the car off and he said he had had a noise in the box (Reverse gear knocking)when he bought it new and that about 3 weeks after purchasing it new in 1988 that it was returned to the dealer and they pulled the rear of the box down.

Anyway, before I pulled the box apart I took images of everypart before and after and it would appear that the "Fifth Gear Shift Plates" in the rear of the box by the main shaft nut were, or may have been, put in the wrong way, ie the lumpy part down and the flat side up.

In the workshop manual the shift plates appear to be installed sitting on the spring with the lumpy bit up (or facing you) so that they engage the centre of the Synchro Sleeve when it is moved forward or rear by the shift forks.

I'm still not sure of which is right but this lead me to check a few further things on the rear of the box that didn't seem right

The sequence for installation of the thrust washer, needle roller thrust bearing, locating pin and thrust washer was also out

I checked the images I took before I did the strip down of the MF5.

I re-installed (did the build) the shift plates, as per the "before dismantling shot" (Strip down).
As I read out the sequence from the workshop manual I relised that who ever had worked on the box before had got the instal sequence wrong.

They had the needle roller thrust bearing hard up against the Fifth Gear and the Needle Roller Bearing it was sitting on; what should of been there was the thin thrust washer, then the needle roller thrust bearing, the locating pin and then the big thrust (slotted) washer and the large mainshaft nut.


Maybe, the person who originally put the box back together was rushed or just inexperienced (remembering that this was back in 1988) but it would appear that the rear end of the box is where the trashed Layshaft bearing (original problem for me) was and that perhaps these over-sights (That's if they are???) caused and still causes confusion for me as to which way the shift plates should be orientated.

If it is at all possible; if someone has put the MF5 Fifth Gear Synchro assembly back together could you please let me know the correct orientation of those little itty bitty shift plates with the little coil springy things.

Or if you have a descent repair manual may be that may give a clue, I'm working off photocopied parts of a Gregories repair manual and the detail just isn't available. (They have even stuffed up the way parts should be reassembled

Like on page 120 the Insert Retainer is in the correct orientation but then if you look at page 122 the Insert Retainer is in the wrong orientation for assembly. The repair manual also doesn't show a picture of the "thin thrust washer", or "needle roller thrust bearing". No wonder people get confused

Anhow any help would be great and sorry for the long winded comments

The Fifth Gear Synchro assembly is my main concern especially the orientation of the small shift plates

Cheers

[cohn]

The thrust washers are only there if there is excesive endplay in the shafts. So it isn't good to go off the pictures in the gregories manual, it depends on what box they disassembled and took pictures of.
The inserts or 'shift plates" should have the raise facing the syncromesh sleeve and if there's little coil springs then they will go in between the inserts and sleeve.
There should also be insert springs, normally two which hold the inserts out against the sleeve, these are three quarter round springs which sit on either side of the syncromesh hub on the inside of the inserts pushing them into the sleeve.
Hope this helps.
If you have anymore drama's feel free to PM me.

[Holdfast]

Thanks for replying cohn

The explanation about using the repair manual and why things are as they are was taken on board

And, the info, re the "inserts" or 'shift plates" was also a releif, thanks for helping me get the Synchro assemblies back together.

As always this forum is a bundle of knowledge and I look forward to returning the favour one day

Cheers

[Holdfast]

Not much to say but this!

The box is back in one piece minus the Bell and extension housing; seems like the box is as smooth as silk; all the gears turn well in each gear and the end play of each gear is IAW the specs (Sought of) and generally all is well

Tomorrow, I'll bring the box completely together.

If you guys have any tips I'd really love them especially if there's any probs with reassembling.


Cheers from Holdfast (Havin a Go)

[Holdfast]

Box is back together now, spent last night joining the Extension and Bell housing to the carrier.

Lining up the selector finger so that it fitted correctly into the lugs of the shift rails was a bit of a challenge. I thought I was going to have problems with this before assembling because you cant or I couldn't see through the side of the extension housing to line things up.

So I measured the distance of the front edge of the shift rail lug to the carrier plate which was 100mm and then I moved the selector arm (The rod) until the front edge of selector finger was 100mm from the edge of the Extension housing face that joins onto the carrier plate. Then all I did was marked the position with a black texter where the selector arm goes through the top of the selector housing so that I knew the exact position.

Then it's just a matter of rotating the selector arm anti-clockwise, lining up the texta marks and gently lower the extension housing onto the carrier; and once ya feel the selector arm finger engage the lugs on the shift rail turn the selector arm clockwise and it's in.

Then it's bolt up time.

The most important thing is not to panic once you've put the sealant on the carrier plate edge and to have a practice run before you actually put any sealant on the surfaces cos it can be a tricky little job getting the finger and lugs lined up.

Also, the lugs in the shift rails all have to be in the same line before you attempt the above:-)

[Holdfast]

The rebuild was done back in October 2006 (My first attempt) and she's still going well as of Jan 2007

[Holdfast]

Just wanted to let you guys know that the rebuild of the manual gear box back in 2005 was the best experience in my life and that my thanks go out to you all (The Forum).

The gear box is running as smooth as silk and doesn't look like faulting.

The one thing I would like to share with you is that it's very important to take images / photos of every step when dis-assembling the box. What I did was set up my camera on a tripod and took images of every stage of the break down. Close ups of the synchros and the gear spacings is very important so that when the box is put back together that things are exactly the same or they look exactly the same.

Would you believe it that the only image that i didn't take was that of the position of the gear leaver and boot. I put the gear shift in the way I thougt it should go and everything was ok except that it (the gear shift) would pop out of gear now and then.

All I had to do was turn the gear stick 180 degrees and all was ok. If you put the gear stick in the wrong way the box works ok except that the rubber boot becomes compressed and pushes the gear lever out of position especially when you are in fourth gear.

Anyway, things are sweet and have been for a long time. My Stock VL is doing great and as I said before I just wanted to touch base and thank everyone and to encourage others to have a go at fixing things that seem impossible but easy when you have a great bunch of people to help! (You guys)

[f1tzy]

Good work mate getting in there and doing it yourself succesfully

[Holdfast]

Just thought I'd update and again thank all those great people who helped me learn

The manual box is still going great thanks to the forums help.

Sometimes we forget that as we gain knowledge we often forget those who helped us originally. I'd just like to thank those good blokes who did the righty by me, you saved me heaps of bucks but also made me realise that JC is a great forum.

The Vl and her gear box are still going great guns so thumbs up to you blokes, your contributions are what makes this place great