Gas system, Rebate doing it your self on the cheap 2nd parts

[cracker]

Interested at running my vn v6 on lpg and petrol, possibley only lpg
talking to a friend he picked up a kit ( 2nd hand) tank still indate for 7years
for around $350 mounted up the tank him self and did what he could before handing it over to the mechanic to install the gas lines which cant be reused, set up the wiring and to sign off on it all being legit and legal.

as he had a lpg system install he was able to apply for the goverments lpg grant, of $2000

the kit costing him $350ish
and around $1100 for the mechanics side, its clear to see whos the winner in this

just wondering what parts/ brand names i should use when looking for a 2nd hand kit
quite capable of mounting the tank wiring it all up and running coolant feed/return to the mixer etc...not sure what i woudlnt be able to do apart from run the main copper lines etc...
interested who has done this, with what success.

any information, parts required brand names to go with and prices would be great, not really intrested in peformance, just some cheap fuel and a nice cheap to run daily
thanks tom

[strgas]

16 yrs fitting gas dont buy a second hand unit from a wrecker as its more trouble than its worth and if you ring around for a quote to fit this second hand kit you will more than likely be told there is no warranty on this second hand junk , end of the day you get what you pay for and doing it on the cheap can cost you more in the long term . my two cents

[cracker]

cheers for the advice. surely though 2nd hand tank could be used? considering they have to be checked every 10 years?
also small others bits and pieces, wiring looms etc?
what mixers would you recomend? new or rebuilt

[strgas]

tanks i would only recommend APA C&J avoid the cheap and nasty mutli valves as when they due for 10 test the whole valve must be replaced and can cost around 260 just for the valve alone and that's trade price plus the labour to remove and refit the tank . wiring looms i would never trust the person before to have wired it correctly and your loom may have differences with in it as well not one loom suits all cars or systems , IMPCO air valve systems are a waste of time poor economy power and idle quality one good back fire and pop goes the diagraphm and a rough cost to replace and retune 185 + if the mixer itself has cracked too. simple ring mixers contain no moving parts and only require cleanning now and then unlike IMPCO mixers .

[cracker]

ah okay some great information here mate thank you very much for your input.

as far as wrecking yards go id be hunting around for something thats been recomended, good brand name/design

so as far as mixers go, you have either like a large gas carby, or a serperate unit and a gas ring
what do you think about gas research throttle bodies? what sort of mixer would suit that?
sorry if my questions are terrible and vague dont no heaps about gas systems

[strgas]

I would recommend GRA carby's any day for power and driveablity idle quality , I worked for GRA for two years and have had all my cars running on GRA for years without hassle's .
A simple convertor is needed to run the GRA carby's as long as its set up for the GRA carby a B2 or impco E model with mods will run it the old century converters will run them with no mods

[cracker]

so gra throttle body(carby) replaces the standard tb, and a b2 or impco e model, get it rebuilt? would be pretty solid set up, then find a nice ish tank apa or such as you suggested with few years left, what else would be required, water lines to the mixer(easy) some sort of ecu piggy back/loom? few soleniod vavles too shut off supply?

thanks again for the help!

[Cheap6]

I did exactly what your friend did, as described in the opening post i.e. fitted most of the system and had the lines run and system signed off and registered by a workshop. I did the electrical side too. I would have run the lines also but would have had to buy a flaring tool ($$$). It was pre-rebate so I'm not sure how that works now. The paperwork requirements for the rebate have been changed so as to prevent people from converting one car, claiming the rebate and then using the same parts to convert another (in a different name), while collecting a second rebate. Or at least claiming that they did two conversions when audited. Should be OK with receipts I think (but ask/research of course).

Any system has to comply with the fitting standard; AS/NZS 1425:2007 (unless there is a more recent revision). A copy is $170 (I think) to buy so you might consider that money better put towards paying someone else to do the conversion if you feel you need it. A tech. college might have a copy.

Talk to the workshop(s) that you propose to use for finishing the installation as they may want some things done a certain way or want to check something; you will be asking them to verify your work as well as theirs.

Buying a complete system would be the safest way to do it but I found it difficult to get a full system with all the parts OK (to my standard), so I gathered the bits and pieces as they came up. This meant that vehicles other than Commodores could be donors. While you can mix and match some brands and components within a brand, you need to be sure of what you are doing if taking the latter approach (I guess that's part of what you are asking). There is no guarantee that a system removed in its entirety from another car (Commodore) meets the current standard either (although it should).

The cost of the tank should reflect the useful service life remaining in it, otherwise a used tank is OK.

Ideally, you would kit the converter and mixer (if applicable) but it's not essential and not cheap. The gaskets/rubbers can dry out if left sitting around, so a newly wrecked donor might help.

A basic list of parts would be:

mixer/venturi ring (Impco 225 for me - it's good enough for GMH.)

converter (Impco L or E I think. I can't recall. Either one works with the 225)

two LPG fuel lock-offs - one at the tank, one at the converter.

a tank - some used tanks will have the security solenoid coil on the lock-off for BCM anti-theft interface on VR/VS. Swap it for the standard type solenoid coil for use on a VP and fit a kill switch to it - a V6 will still be able to run using the DFI (spark) with LPG fitted, despite the anti-theft disabling the ECM/PCM.

filler neck and valve - the combination of the valves in/at the tank and at the filler end must meet certain requirements specified in the standard.

LPG high pressure line and fittings - must be new for each installation.

LPG vapour hose

heater hose - to connect the converter into the cooling system. The location of the converter and where in the cooling system it connects to can affect the system's operation. GMH connected it at the bypass hose between the water pump and the inlet manifold. Full flow at all times, and it feeds the (slightly) colder coolant from the converter into the inlet manifold and heads, and avoids long hose runs across the car from the heater hoses. GMH used a pair of brass pipes to get the pipe run behind the drive belt. If you see those anywhere, grab them.

closed loop fuel controller ("black box") - some are very simple and simply chase stoichiometry, some have a self-learn facility for a better "first guess" at where the mixture should be. Depending on the closed loop control method, a solenoid operated valve (or two) or stepper motor may be needed for this also. GMH used the Impco ADP on VP-VT. The Impco Commander works fine for me (when I use it).

a means of ensuring that LPG flows (via the fuel lock-off valves) only with the engine running - this can be: a (venturi) vacuum switch, an oil pressure switch or an rpm switch. The rpm switch is probably best.

a fuel changeover switch, marked, as per the standard, to indicate the fuel being used and having a neutral position (neither fuel).

ideally, an LPG memcal.

the GMH approved system included a microswitch on the throttle to disable the starter with the throtlle opened. This is optional if you know where your feet are.

an LPG fuel gauge or means of switching which tank sender is connected to the cluster gauge. The sender on the tank has to match the gauge used.

sundry relays, wiring, brackets and hose clamps.

ducting and a flanged joiner to contain the LPG line and filler hose between the tank and the exit point from the boot (cargo area for wagon). There are some requirements on the duct cross sectional area too, which is calculated as net (less the area of the hose and lines).

Also, the GMH system ran two ducts with the LPG filler on the passenger side. This meant the LPG filler was mounted in the sheet metal of the 1/4 panel. Not great I think when a heavy filler nozzle is connected to it. I would suggest using a tank that runs a single (bigger diameter) duct out to the driver's side and the petrol fill point.

PCV relocation stuff - small length of hose and a blocking plug so that the PCV draws air in front of the mixer/venturi not air + LPG.

[haz4rd]

Hi There,

In you above post you mention;

>>
a tank - some used tanks will have the security solenoid coil on the lock-off for BCM anti-theft interface on VR/VS. Swap it for the standard type solenoid coil for use on a VP and fit a kill switch to it - a V6 will still be able to run using the DFI (spark) with LPG fitted, despite the anti-theft disabling the ECM/PCM.
>>

I have a VX Impco kit that I'm installing in my VY Wagon.
Its all installed but I can't get it to run. The only thing I can think of is that the anti theft solenoid on the tank is playing up.
As none of my solenoids are clicking when I switch the fuel over.

From your above post are you saying that I can bypass this?
As a new one from Holden is $500!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

[mr calais 5.0]

My dad had a 2nd hand tested tank fitted to his f100 custom and then the both gauges never worked proper. The in can gauge would only get down to 1/4 and stay there and the tank gauge would stay at half full.. Cost him 350.. But a mate at work got a 2nd hand system fitted for 1700 and then got the rebate for 1750.. But think the rebate is down to 1250 now?

[sawychri06]

The 2nd hand system as said can be a problem, when buying new all parts are covered by some waranty, after a few years things like converters and stuff can go. In SA the rebate is only $1300 therefore ur calculations might need to be altered depending on ur state (not sure). if you do decide to go along those lines still gas research have always been a good system, especially for running dedicated lpg. Also parnell systems are a good system just be careful of cheap nasty systems. listen to strgas he knows his stuff

[Cheap6]

Hi There,

In you above post you mention;

>>
a tank - some used tanks will have the security solenoid coil on the lock-off for BCM anti-theft interface on VR/VS. Swap it for the standard type solenoid coil for use on a VP and fit a kill switch to it - a V6 will still be able to run using the DFI (spark) with LPG fitted, despite the anti-theft disabling the ECM/PCM.
>>

I have a VX Impco kit that I'm installing in my VY Wagon.
Its all installed but I can't get it to run. The only thing I can think of is that the anti theft solenoid on the tank is playing up.
As none of my solenoids are clicking when I switch the fuel over.

From your above post are you saying that I can bypass this?
As a new one from Holden is $500!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

You can swap the solenoid coil - that has the anti-theft electronics on it - with a standard type coil.

For the purpose of ID, the anti-theft solenoid coil has a ~ 30x50mm black plastic block on the side of it with encapsulated electronics inside.

In the absence of the anti-theft being disabled, you should find that the solenoid will open very briefly as the changeover switch is operated or the ignition switched on, before then closing. If it doesn't, maybe there is a different problem?

[strgas]

replace the security lock off control module with a standard lock off soleniod and wire it to the fuel pump power supply wire as this is a timed power supply no need for a safety switch