is it worth doing some custom electronics?
i've had my v8 wagon for 5 years now and it's starting to get a bit long in the tooth. half a million kms, last engine and box rebuilt was 100,000 - 150,000 ago, and the whole thing is still pretty much stock...
one of the things i've always wanted to do is customise the electronics a bit. i know you can mod the old delcos , or even just swap it for a newer model, but i'm an electronics engineer and i always thought it would be fun to just make my own... more as a learning experience/play than anything else.
plenty of ideas...for example a full full lcd dash is easy one to do, but the screens aint cheap...or replace the ecu with an iphone, docked in the centre console... or bolting an electric motor to the back of the gearbox, putting some batteries in the spare wheel well and trying to do the hybrid thing...
ok i may have been smoking something when i was thinking of the last couple...
but small steps first... right now i'm thinking of tinkering with the efi.
idea right now is basically an daughter board that sits between the delco and the injectors. this can do a couple of things...
1) sequential injection.
shouldnt be hard to implement? i think it would just need the pulse from the dizzy and the pulse from the delco and a bit of software in a microcontroller. ideally this would improve throttle response and make it idle smoother and improve low rpm economy.. kinda nice cause i spend a fair bit of time sitting in traffic - thinking about the fuel injection. but whether it would make a difference i dont know. from what i gather the injectors sit up in the runners a bit - sequential usually done right ono the valve? so it might be pointless.
2) lean cruise mode
mine old delco doesnt have it. piece of piss to have a switch on the dash which trimms the injector pulse width... i'd have to fake the o2 sensor back to the delco too, but that's not hard. a few other questions like how much you'd trim it, but should be able to work that out with a few sums
if it doesnt work... you just unclip it out of the loom and plug the wires back together, no big deal.
but i dont know if it's worth the effort to be honest. so i'm after thoughts/daydreams/critisisms or what have you.
Look into megasquirt, cheap and large user base of users. The new MS3 does sequential V8 injection with datalogging and the whole 9 yards as far as features. It would cook me breakfast if I asked. Along with a wideband O2 you could make it do whatever you needed, hell hang 2 big turbos on the side if you want and make 600hp
turbos FTW.. Just comes down to how much money and or time you have?
time, plenty. money, none.
yeah it was the megasquirt i was thinking of porting over to arm9 so it would run on an iphone or andriod.
not so keen to do something off the shelf tbh...making new stuff and getting it to work is where i get my kicks.
turbos ftw... but looking in my engine bay, i sometimes think now neatly a centrifugal supercharger would sit where the alternator is currently and throw straight into the throttle body...
but no mechanical mods for the time being - sticking to electronics mods.
I wanna slap a turbo on my zx6r bike for some serious wheelie fun
said turbo would probably cost more than my vn... hence me wondering if it is actually worth it...
I'm a studying electrical engineer, I would be very interested in a project like this. I will be watching this thread with interest. An iPhone ECU would be unreal! and the ultimate anti theft device, don't have your iphone, can't steal your car... conversely lose your iPhone... screwed =POriginally Posted by vnstu
Edit: You could likely integrate a capacitive ignition system into it as well: Connect iphone, switches car to "on" and a "push to start" button on the iphone starts it =]
putting money into any of these cars is a waste cause youll never get it back if you ever sell. we do it cause we love it.... if you take out your motor and box what your rolling shell worth.... 500 bucks maybe... modify for your enjoyment and for people to give you props. as long as your happy then it was worth what ever you spent....set a budget and have at it....
dont sweat the petty... pet the sweaty...
I love this sort of stuff - and the motivation behind it i.e. do it just because you can. There's an "Evil Genius" book with some projects in it that might give some ideas. (I can't recommend buying it because it's just not all that good but maybe look at it in a library - at least first).
The LCD instrument screen would be cool.
A couple more ideas, some simple:
Digital MAP gauge: Almost trivial running off the MAP voltage (it's virtually linear wrt to MAP - so a voltmeter simply scaled to display meaningful units works). Also useful as a test tool.
Digital temp.gauge: harder (than MAP) because there's a step change as a resistance is switched in the ECM and the sensor voltage is not linear with temp. in any case (which is why it has the step - nearly though). I was thinking scaling, like the MAP, with a shunt and comparator added to detect the change in resistance and switch the scaling.
Dash indication of the current gear being used (in an auto.), selector position and torque converter slip: rpm and road speed inputs with some micro logic.
Rather than full hybrid maybe start with alternator cut out, battery gas gauging and charge on decel: upgraded alt.? + deep discharge battery.
Likewise A/C compressor operation only on decel. There's a couple of circuits around that move the throttle position cut out lower and I have a brake pedal switch already but it's pretty unsophisticated doing just those.
Infinitely variable (between 0 and full power limits) HVAC, or even engine cooling, fans.
DBW: that would be very difficult to do but could be interesting in that you could vary throttle response with road speed, damp out small movements at cruise etc..
Tripmeter, MPGuidino style: intantaneous fuel consumption, trip fuel consumption, litres left in tank/consumed etc.. It would have to do more than the Level 3 swap to be worthwhile but that's not too difficult.
HSV style datalogger, with g-sensor. You can buy capacitive type g-sensors on a small PCB that allow the pins on the IC to be accessed easily. Just a real time dash display of 'G's would be interesting.
Speaking of g-sensors, there's a (manual) gear knob that displays gear selector position on an LCD. Maybe that could be duplicated cheaply. It works by sensing the difference in G-force on the selector in each gear (sensor in the knob)and one mounted to the trans tunnel. Totally useless really but somehow still cool.
A sequential injection add-on board for the Delco would be cool because then you could change the phasing of the injection wrt the inlet valve opening for best economy and/or power. Adapting a later model ECU (not necessarily Holden) would be interesting. Even the old 808 it comes standard with is pretty damned sophisticated compared with some aftermarket ones that are mainly meant for power and ~reasonable~ driveability. Just looking at all the setup parameters in the 808 makes my head spin :-P
One thing I would like to do is when the injection shuts off on over-run, at low speeds have the torque converter lock so that you can go down to even lower speeds without the engine staling.
there's already a megasquirt thingie which uses your iphone to monitor/tune the megasquirt. I dont know how far it goes. But the idea would be to have some limited electronics in the car who's job it is to convert the sensor data into a digital feed you can pump up into the iphone for processing. And yeah... pull your phone, and good luck getting the car started. Although it's a pain if your missus wants to borrow the car......An iPhone ECU would be unreal! and the ultimate anti theft device, don't have your iphone, can't steal your car...
yeah dont I know it. I ran some numbers the other day, the car has cost me like $20k over the past 5 years or so, mostly petrol :-pputting money into any of these cars is a waste cause youll never get it back if you ever sell
but it's hard to tinker like this on the newer cars. The vn is pretty basic electronically, there's room for playing...
not too hard, thought about it all for the digital dash. It's mostly just a case of using an appropriate a2d, then dealing with the rest in software on the micro.Digital MAP gauge, Digital temp.gauge, Tripmeter, datalogger, gear indicator...
I definitely wont be starting with full hybrid... ;-)Rather than full hybrid maybe start with alternator cut out...
Thought about it, something to work towards, definitely.DBW
i've had a serious think about this one. If you're gonna tinker to try and improve fuel economy, it would be nice to actually know what your economy is... The trick is knowing how much fuel you have, and how much you're using. Maybe between fuel pressure and injector duty cycle you could figure out your fuel consumption.Tripmeter, MPGuidino style
yeah and it wouldnt be hard to do, a 4-gas sensor or some such up the tail pipe and you could just manually tune the phase, then just store the settings...A sequential injection add-on board for the Delco would be cool because then you could change the phasing of the injection wrt the inlet valve opening for best economy and/or power.
my worry is that it might be kind of pointless with the vn manifold/injector/head set up. If the injectors are too far up the runners then it'll be harder to make a difference. Thing is, i've had it all in pieces on my bench, and never paid attention to exactly where the fuel ends up in the runner...thoughts anyone?
Also... the vt runs sequential I believe? What's the chances of the vt 5.0 manifold fitting on a vn?
hell yeah. This is something that even my skeptical old mechanic of a father likes. I was thinking just manual override for now... a hold down button somewhere convenient...so many times when i'm rolling down a hill too fast and I downchange the auto to save a bit of fuel..I would like to do is when the injection shuts off on over-run, at low speeds have the torque converter lock so that you can go down to even lower speeds without the engine staling.
good place to start I think. This is the simplest to make, and other stuff can be added over time.I would like to do is when the injection shuts off on over-run, at low speeds have the torque converter lock so that you can go down to even lower speeds without the engine stalling.
So a little daughter board which has the injector driver and the torque converter lockout going through it. Might want the tacho pulse as well to stop it stalling...And i'll have the micro dump the duty cycle of the injectors at the same time to a datalogger so I can start playing with the fuel economy thing.
Potential issue I can see...
the drivers the delco are using... i'm guessing they aint small, might need to be careful not to fry electronics if i'm going to intercept that...
how the delco reacts when I shut down the injectors without it's permission...i may have to fake some signals back to it to keep it happy
finding out just when you can lock out the torque converter and get away with it...
anything else?
fail champion
Blackjack Champion!
Lean cruise can be enabled in the VN V8 memcals I'm pretty sure ... doesn't take much hardware or $$ outlay to tune yourself
or greenfoam enabled it in my old VR (wasn't present in the HSV 185i memcal), and I'm pretty sure in my VN 304 also... does make a difference fuel economy wise.
That's all I can be of assistance with
Sam
WTB: mulberry VN interior parts
I have already done the MAP readout with just a voltage divider and an LCD. You wouldn't do it that way if you wanted to put it up in a bigger LCD screen with other readouts of course. I did need to consider that anything connected to the sensor voltages needs to high impedence to avoid altering the signal (> 10M Ohms). A=>D would be OK I think.
Have you had a look at the code for the MPGuino? Because the pressure difference between manifold and fuel pressure (absolute pressures) is held constant by the reg., a simple integration of injector pulse width times flow rate is all that's required to calc. fuel consumption. That's how the OEM tripmeter does it also. I think that the MPGuino does use a correction to account for lower flow during injector opening and closing.i've had a serious think about this one. If you're gonna tinker to try and improve fuel economy, it would be nice to actually know what your economy is... The trick is knowing how much fuel you have, and how much you're using. Maybe between fuel pressure and injector duty cycle you could figure out your fuel consumption.
It should just bolt on and may even be no different to VN. I can't help but think that simply wiring in a VT computer is going to be easier than modding the '808 (not as much fun of course). The VT sequential has an additional Hall sensor in the distributor to detect cam position which is required for the sequential operation so I think that you're going to need that anyway. Otherwise, you could have the sequential injector firing but it's 50:50 as to whether you're firing against an open or closed inlet valve.Also... the vt runs sequential I believe? What's the chances of the vt 5.0 manifold fitting on a vn?
If you want to see where you can use the TCC lock up outside the current parameters, you might want to try connecting a switch off the ALDL connnector before getting into the ECM or add on. There is a pin to that connecting directly to the TCC lock up solenoid earth connector, in parallel with the ECM, so you only need to switch that to earth. I don't know which one off the top off my head. You can't "unapply" the TCC but you can apply it regardless of ECM apply.hell yeah. This is something that even my skeptical old mechanic of a father likes. I was thinking just manual override for now... a hold down button somewhere convenient...so many times when i'm rolling down a hill too fast and I downchange the auto to save a bit of fuel..
What you will find is that if you engage the TCC at too low a road speed, you will get a driveline shudder. I don't know if this does damage but I wasn't too keen to find out so didn't push it. I haven't tried (I can't) altering the fuel cut on decel. in conjunction with the TCC.
Hyundai Ecel tail light harness connectors plug straight onto the ALDL if you want to make it neat but for the purposes of testing individual pins would be OK I'm sure.
The '808 has two injector drivers but they are wired in parallel in the car harness.
Yes, I think that you will need to dummy an O2 sensor signal as per your earlier post. Not sure what frequency - cross counts in GM speak - is required.
It's hardly off the shelf, even comes with a prototype area for making you own circuits onto the unit itself. People do custom nitrous control, boost control, datalogging, antilag. If you knew your stuff you could even do a cylinder shutoff but getting the ratios right and a smooth feel would be a bitch. Mine I messed around with launch control and other do dads. It is a really flexible system.
on hol for the moment, the tailshaft cv shattered on the way to work yesterday...
so i picked up a spare delco ecu while at the wreckers for $20 - should keep me busy for a while.
$20? That's good.
Do they charge different prices for 4/6/8 cyl 808s? I know it's quite easy to convert one to another, particularly ones without a knock sensor, but I imagine they would charge the earth for a V8 one and perhaps almost give away Camira and N13 Pulsar ones.
As a learning experience your ideas are a great way to understand modern electronics on cars. We built a number of add on modules over a 15 years period to do much of these things. One of the projects was a natural gas powered car V8 VP Commodore so we had to control the gas injectors as well as the petrol ones so that the transition was smooth. The good thing about working on our older cars is that the ECU is not as complex as new cars so they won't detect your module and throw trouble codes.
I suggest you think about the microprocessor you are comfortable with and have the tools to program. Then find a factory manual as they have all the signals and an explanation of the sensors. Build your board and initially piggy back it onto the Delco ECU. Your code should allow you to monitor the ECU and sensors signals. Then take over the signal and just replicate it. Finally modify the signal.
Of course it will all work just fine on the bench, but once you get it in the car with it's storm of electrical noise, all bets are off. Q.E.D.
$20 with no memcal - that'll be where all the cost is. i'm building an emulator then i'll use that modified VR code from delco hacking instead.
yeah i've had that thought. someone on delco hacking has reverse engineered the HC11 in the 1227808, so i've considered porting it over to a pic. too much work for now, but definately in the long term project bin... the main advantage is it would be written in C, making it much easier to get the code to jump through hoops... and then throw that onto the new pics with the onboard DSP, sky's the limit then...
currently working on some math that may be able to do individual cylinder tuning. waiting on some pcbs and memory to arrive from china so i can do some eprom emulation...
all part of the fun :-)
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